Near collision at Brampton

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pelmet
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Near collision at Brampton

Post by pelmet »

A good reminder of how conflicting traffic can surprise you, and for reasons that are out of the ordinary.....

A student pilot was returning to Brampton-Caledon (CNC3) from a cross country solo flight in a
Cessna 172P (C-GOZD) aircraft and did not select the correct radio frequency for the Brampton
Flying Club. Unable to reach anyone on the radio, the pilot did a precautionary fly over runway 33;
runway 15 was active. The pilot then proceeded to land on runway 33. Simultaneously, C-GBBP, a
Cessna 172S aircraft with an instructor and student on board had just touched down on runway 15
for a touch and go landing. The instructor observed the other aircraft in the landing flare in front of
them, broadcast on the radio for the aircraft to go around, and told his student stop their aircraft.
The pilot of C-GOZD continued with the landing and then noticed C-GBBP on the runway in front of
him. The pilot of C-GOZD attempted to stop the aircraft with difficulty, so applied right rudder and
exited off the side of runway 33 into the infield. There was no damage to either aircraft. There were
no injuries.
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PostmasterGeneral
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by PostmasterGeneral »

The conflicting traffic did not please advise!!
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linecrew
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by linecrew »

Devils advocate time.

Imagine both were NORDO and the winds were calm. In such a scenario both pilots would have flown opposite downwinds and ended up head to head. Hopefully they would notice one another before anything happens but if not...yikes. I am still in awe that we allow NORDO at some airports in Canada.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

linecrew wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:17 am
Devils advocate time.

Imagine both were NORDO and the winds were calm. In such a scenario both pilots would have flown opposite downwinds and ended up head to head. Hopefully they would notice one another before anything happens but if not...yikes. I am still in awe that we allow NORDO at some airports in Canada.
Well if they’re smart enough to notice the winds are calm, presumably they’re smart enough to look at the opposite downwind, and opposite final, and spot conflicting traffic.

Not every aviation issue should be solved by more engines, more crew, more radios, more checklists and more regulations.
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trey kule
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by trey kule »

. Not every aviation issue should be solved by more engines, more crew, more radios, more checklists and more regulations.
Are you sure?

Common sense seems to have disappeared.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

trey kule wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:28 am
. Not every aviation issue should be solved by more engines, more crew, more radios, more checklists and more regulations.
Are you sure?
I'm not 100%, but I try to persuade myself.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by linecrew »

trey kule wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:28 am
. Not every aviation issue should be solved by more engines, more crew, more radios, more checklists and more regulations.
Are you sure?

Common sense seems to have disappeared.
...and I'd like to protect myself from those that can't/don't protect themselves.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by goldeneagle »

linecrew wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:17 am
Devils advocate time.

Imagine both were NORDO and the winds were calm. In such a scenario both pilots would have flown opposite downwinds and ended up head to head. Hopefully they would notice one another before anything happens but if not...yikes. I am still in awe that we allow NORDO at some airports in Canada.
I learned to fly on a NORDO airplane, operated out of an airport that had 3 runways, and perish the thought, nobody on a radio on the ground. No FSS, no tower, nobody to hold my hand at all. When I did my cross country, I went into a tower controlled airport, phone them in advance to let them know I was coming. They gave me the 'green light' to land. I parked in front of the tower, went inside for a coffee, then chatted for a bit with the folks in the FSS office, then went out and took off, again they gave me the green lights.

Personally, my thoughts are, if you cant fly an airplane without a radio, then maybe you dont belong in the front seat of an airplane to begin with. It's really not rocket science by any stretch, just look out the window and confirm there are no other airplanes in the place you are about to go.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by linecrew »

goldeneagle wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 pm
linecrew wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:17 am
Devils advocate time.

Imagine both were NORDO and the winds were calm. In such a scenario both pilots would have flown opposite downwinds and ended up head to head. Hopefully they would notice one another before anything happens but if not...yikes. I am still in awe that we allow NORDO at some airports in Canada.
I learned to fly on a NORDO airplane, operated out of an airport that had 3 runways, and perish the thought, nobody on a radio on the ground. No FSS, no tower, nobody to hold my hand at all. When I did my cross country, I went into a tower controlled airport, phone them in advance to let them know I was coming. They gave me the 'green light' to land. I parked in front of the tower, went inside for a coffee, then chatted for a bit with the folks in the FSS office, then went out and took off, again they gave me the green lights.

Personally, my thoughts are, if you cant fly an airplane without a radio, then maybe you dont belong in the front seat of an airplane to begin with. It's really not rocket science by any stretch, just look out the window and confirm there are no other airplanes in the place you are about to go.
I'm guessing the example you are providing was at a quiet airport with very little traffic.

My point is that the technology of communication is so incredibly affordable and greatly enhances situational awareness that it's hard to believe people still argue against it. To me it's like the arguments folks had against wearing seat belts in cars when they became mandatory, or when all cars had to have anti-lock brakes. I just don't get why anyone wouldn't agree with it. I guess I just don't have faith in people because I've seen some of them at their worst.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

It’s nothing like seatbelts. There is no rain of small aircraft falling out of the sky at uncontrolled airports due to conflicts in the circuit. There is no problem to be solved. Even in this instance of a conflict (where in fact the aircraft had radios, so your proposed rule making would make no difference) no damage resulted to any aircraft, and there were no injuries.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by rookiepilot »

goldeneagle wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 pm


I learned to fly on a NORDO airplane, operated out of an airport that had 3 runways, and perish the thought, nobody on a radio on the ground.
Yeah....where?

Let me get this straight, your're advocating this should be the practice at Brampton? That's the thread here -- about Brampton, one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in the country.

Have you been to Brampton on a sunny Saturday with the pattern jammed full of low time students?

I've seen guys like you in the pattern, who think they own the airport, who cut off slower planes on base, disregard the traffic pattern 6 other planes are following, neither place nor respond to any radio calls.

Clearly affirms the view degrees certainly don't translate into common sense.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by goingnowherefast »

photofly wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:35 am
Not every aviation issue should be solved by more engines, more crew, more radios, more checklists and more regulations.
That's why airliners have 2, 3, 4, or 5 of everything? The 747 is unquestionably a safer airplane than the 172.

I'm not arguing NORDO can't be done safely, just don't fly NORDO into a busy airport. Granted this event sounds like finger trouble switching frequencies and is an accepted risk in the flight training world.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

goingnowherefast wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:01 pm
That's why airliners have 2, 3, 4, or 5 of everything? The 747 is unquestionably a safer airplane than the 172
If you try to land both at Brampton, which one is safer? Which one would you rather be in, then?
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:50 pm
goldeneagle wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 pm
Let me get this straight, your're advocating this should be the practice at Brampton? That's the thread here -- about Brampton, one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in the country.
No, he's not advocating that.

The only reason we're talking about NORDO is because some cockamamy comment about how NORDO should be banned - no, I'm sorry - about how it's a miracle that NORDO is still permitted anywhere in Canada. Clearly the obvious needs to be pointed out:both airplanes involved in this incident were radio equipped. Both of them. This has nothing to do with NORDO.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:21 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:50 pm
goldeneagle wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 pm
Let me get this straight, your're advocating this should be the practice at Brampton? That's the thread here -- about Brampton, one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in the country.
No, he's not advocating that.

The only reason we're talking about NORDO is because some cockamamy comment about how NORDO should be banned - no, I'm sorry - about how it's a miracle that NORDO is still permitted anywhere in Canada. Clearly the obvious needs to be pointed out:both airplanes involved in this incident were radio equipped. Both of them. This has nothing to do with NORDO.
The thread is about Brampton, not Lone Pine Tree, Saskatchewan.

The attitude is clear, and I've seen it myself in the pattern encountering the odd pilot:

"I'll do whatever I want, due to some superiority complex, and to heck with anyone else".

That's a problem, especially at the busiest fields.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:37 pm
The thread is about Brampton, not Lone Pine Tree, Saskatchewan.
...
"I'll do whatever I want, due to some superiority complex, and to heck with anyone else".

That's a problem, especially at the busiest fields.
How is that remotely relevant to an incident between a student who mis-tuned their radio, and an instructional flight that hadn't taken off yet?
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by rookiepilot »

photofly wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:39 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:37 pm
The thread is about Brampton, not Lone Pine Tree, Saskatchewan.
...
"I'll do whatever I want, due to some superiority complex, and to heck with anyone else".

That's a problem, especially at the busiest fields.
How is that remotely relevant to an incident between a student who mis-tuned their radio, and an instructional flight that hadn't taken off yet?
I didn't turn it into a high and mighty effort to assert NORDO rights at JFK et all, in the era of inexpensive handheld radios.

"I don't need to carry a handheld, you know, because".
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:58 pm
I didn't turn it into a high and mighty effort to assert NORDO rights at JFK et all, in the era of inexpensive handheld radios.
No, nobody did! Everybody in this incident had a radio!
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

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photofly wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:21 pm
rookiepilot wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:50 pm
goldeneagle wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 pm
Let me get this straight, your're advocating this should be the practice at Brampton? That's the thread here -- about Brampton, one of the busiest uncontrolled airports in the country.
No, he's not advocating that.

The only reason we're talking about NORDO is because some cockamamy comment about how NORDO should be banned - no, I'm sorry - about how it's a miracle that NORDO is still permitted anywhere in Canada. Clearly the obvious needs to be pointed out:both airplanes involved in this incident were radio equipped. Both of them. This has nothing to do with NORDO.
So you’ve seen every single aircraft that’s every been close to you ever?

Yup not a thread about NORDO, but seems you’re defending it anyway.

You have the means to buy an aircraft, get a **** radio. And a transponder.

Stuff happens but at least give yourselves the tools guys.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

Checklist wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:26 pm
So you’ve seen every single aircraft that’s every been close to you ever?

Yup not a thread about NORDO, but seems you’re defending it anyway.

You have the means to buy an aircraft, get a **** radio.
You're still talking about NORDO.

Remember, everyone involved in this incident had a radio.
Checklist wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:26 pm
And a transponder.
And a transponder, too.

Anyone up for mandating TCAS in a 150? After all, we have to give ourselves the tools, don't we?
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by SAR_YQQ »

Everyone needs a 406 and a radio. Please put me out of work.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by yeah yeah »

In a separate thread, we read about a King Air crew who, faced with an electrical failure, elected to contact the Control Tower by cellphone. Perhaps on return from a cross-country with a com failure, the BFC student could have at the very least phoned the flying club or YYZ ATC to get altimeter, local wx, runway in use. Not that hard to dig up the phone numbers in the Flight Supplement. Heck, the number for the flying club is probably written on the rental sheet.

And yes, let’s put SAR_YQQ out of work. :D
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by photofly »

yeah yeah wrote:
Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:51 am
In a separate thread, we read about a King Air crew who, faced with an electrical failure, elected to contact the Control Tower by cellphone. Perhaps on return from a cross-country with a com failure, the BFC student could have at the very least phoned the flying club or YYZ ATC to get altimeter, local wx, runway in use. Not that hard to dig up the phone numbers in the Flight Supplement. Heck, the number for the flying club is probably written on the rental sheet.

And yes, let’s put SAR_YQQ out of work. :D
Ever tried calling someone on a cell phone in a piston single? Without a Bluetooth connection you can’t hear them, and they sure can’t hear you over the engine noise.

Couple that with the hassle factor of looking up the phone number and or trying to dial, while flying, in the already uncertain situation of not being able to raise anyone on the radio, the student pilot is best advised to forget trying to use their cellphone in flight and concentrate on flying the plane properly.

If you’ve got the Bluetooth already linked, the number on speed dial and you’re experienced enough not to lose control while fiddling with the phone, give it a try, but if you’re too scared or incompetent to land without someone telling you the wind and altimeter setting at your VFR uncontrolled field (like YYZ Tower FFS???), you shouldn’t be setting out on a solo cross country.

I thought someone was going to berate the King Air crew for not having a handheld. You know, because shit happens and if you can afford to get a pilot licence, you can afford the right equipment.
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by yeah yeah »

“Couple that with the hassle factor of looking up the phone number and or trying to dial, while flying, in the already uncertain situation of not being able to raise anyone on the radio”

Agreed. So much easier to deal with the opposite end landing and runway excursion
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Re: Near collision at Brampton

Post by rookiepilot »

goldeneagle wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:07 pm

I learned to fly on a NORDO airplane, operated out of an airport that had 3 runways, and perish the thought, nobody on a radio on the ground. No FSS, no tower, nobody to hold my hand at all. When I did my cross country, I went into a tower controlled airport, phone them in advance to let them know I was coming. They gave me the 'green light' to land. I parked in front of the tower, went inside for a coffee, then chatted for a bit with the folks in the FSS office, then went out and took off, again they gave me the green lights.
Photofly,

I quoted this and asserted it isn't a great approach to airmanship, at least at a place like Brampton on most days.

Using a radio at a super busy uncontrolled airport isn't having someone "hold your hand". Much as some pilots feel otherwise, not using one, doesn't make you more of a macho super pilot. :roll:

Nothing to do with electrical failure. You're defending the right, apparently, to go NORDO anyplace, anytime, well, because it's my "right".

I'm also curious where this is, and where --today aa this magical towered airport where you can fly in, park in front of the tower, and go up and have a coffee with the boys, before departing.

I'm genuinely curious where in Canada that exists today. Maybe I'll try that at YTZ next time.
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