Westjet CYHZ
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Hi Aux,
The civilian airliner world is likely much different than the military world. After an infamous 737 crash in Cranbrook where the reversers were stowed for a go-around when a snowplow was sighted with subsequent re-deployment of one of them, all jet airliners were restricted from doing this anymore. That being said, it has happened(after all, it happened in a company of mine to a Douglas product and I have read of other incidents including a widebody where one did not stow again).
Bottom line for airliners with reversers, once deployed, you are riding it out regardless of what subsequently happens, and on almost any contaminated runway, they will be deployed quickly.
More info on the C-17 in terms of go-around options after thrust reverser deployment after landing would be interesting.
The civilian airliner world is likely much different than the military world. After an infamous 737 crash in Cranbrook where the reversers were stowed for a go-around when a snowplow was sighted with subsequent re-deployment of one of them, all jet airliners were restricted from doing this anymore. That being said, it has happened(after all, it happened in a company of mine to a Douglas product and I have read of other incidents including a widebody where one did not stow again).
Bottom line for airliners with reversers, once deployed, you are riding it out regardless of what subsequently happens, and on almost any contaminated runway, they will be deployed quickly.
More info on the C-17 in terms of go-around options after thrust reverser deployment after landing would be interesting.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Thanks Pelmet. I’ll try and dig it.pelmet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:36 pm Hi Aux,
The civilian airliner world is likely much different than the military world. After an infamous 737 crash in Cranbrook where the reversers were stowed for a go-around when a snowplow was sighted with subsequent re-deployment of one of them, all jet airliners were restricted from doing this anymore. That being said, it has happened(after all, it happened in a company of mine to a Douglas product and I have read of other incidents including a widebody where one did not stow again).
Bottom line for airliners with reversers, once deployed, you are riding it out regardless of what subsequently happens, and on almost any contaminated runway, they will be deployed quickly.
More info on the C-17 in terms of go-around options after thrust reverser deployment after landing would be interesting.
Going for the deck at corner
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:12 pm
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Multiple brake assemblies and lines make that pretty unlikely barring a total loss of hydraulic fluid.AuxBatOn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:50 pmI mean, total brake failure. Or is it something with 3+ levels of contingency?GoinVertical wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 4:48 pmApply the emergency / parking brake that uses a different hydraulic system than the regular brakes.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
While you're looking try the LAUDA B767 crash...not on landing, one deployed while airborne...not a happy ending, it's now practiced during training.AuxBatOn wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:38 pmThanks Pelmet. I’ll try and dig it.pelmet wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 5:36 pm Hi Aux,
The civilian airliner world is likely much different than the military world. After an infamous 737 crash in Cranbrook where the reversers were stowed for a go-around when a snowplow was sighted with subsequent re-deployment of one of them, all jet airliners were restricted from doing this anymore. That being said, it has happened(after all, it happened in a company of mine to a Douglas product and I have read of other incidents including a widebody where one did not stow again).
Bottom line for airliners with reversers, once deployed, you are riding it out regardless of what subsequently happens, and on almost any contaminated runway, they will be deployed quickly.
More info on the C-17 in terms of go-around options after thrust reverser deployment after landing would be interesting.
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 50
- Joined: Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:21 pm
Re: Westjet CYHZ
On a 737NG there is a mechanical squat switch on the right landing gear scissors. A bowden cable runs up the gear leg into the wheel well and terminates at a hydraulic valve with some electrical switches. Once this cable pulls the valve open, hydraulics can deploy the inner speed brakes on top of the wing. Also electrical switch on valve sends a signal to the PSEU to tell thrust reversers that aircraft is on ground and then the TR's can open. TR's and speed brakes cannot deploy unless right landing gear is compressed (on ground).
Last edited by Hugh Jasshole on Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Rank 3
- Posts: 126
- Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:16 pm
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Assuming they’re guilt, what should the punishment be? Considering we’ve already decided that firing the pilots and lynching they’re family was the correct response for those two WS pilots that took out a light at YYZ. Clearly the punishment should fit the crime!
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Liberalism itself as a religion where its tenets cannot be proven, but provides a sense of moral rectitude at no real cost.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Heavy tailwind/gust
Shitty runway surface condition
Shitty visibility and ceiling
On a -800 which doesn’t have the greatest reputation for its braking/landing performance
And they landed on the shortest runway ...
It doesn’t look like they tried to hold and wait, they just went straight for gusto. 15min before them there was an AC321 that diverted back to YUL, they didn’t even try doing the approach - you’d think it would have clued them in.
What the fu.ck where they thinking?
Shitty runway surface condition
Shitty visibility and ceiling
On a -800 which doesn’t have the greatest reputation for its braking/landing performance
And they landed on the shortest runway ...
It doesn’t look like they tried to hold and wait, they just went straight for gusto. 15min before them there was an AC321 that diverted back to YUL, they didn’t even try doing the approach - you’d think it would have clued them in.
What the fu.ck where they thinking?
In twenty years time when your kids ask how you got into flying you want to be able to say "work and determination" not "I just kept taking money from your grandparents for type ratings until someone was stupid enough to give me a job"
-
- Rank 4
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:35 pm
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Well, at least all of the wheels stayed on.daedalusx wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:52 pm Heavy tailwind/gust
Shitty runway surface condition
Shitty visibility and ceiling
On a -800 which doesn’t have the greatest reputation for its braking/landing performance
And they landed on the shortest runway ...
It doesn’t look like they tried to hold and wait, they just went straight for gusto. 15min before them there was an AC321 that diverted back to YUL, they didn’t even try doing the approach - you’d think it would have clued them in.
What the fu.ck where they thinking?
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Hey fellas, FWIW multi-engine RCAF pilots don’t ever consider a “go-around” after we have committed to applying TR, propellor reverse, speed brakes, etc. This is not manoeuvre we are trained to perform, nor is it authorized. If any of my pilots were to pontificate this technique, I would be making inroads towards removing their Wings and sending them to work at the CAOC.
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Ah Halifax. The world's most dangerous airport for airliners.
-
- Rank (9)
- Posts: 1250
- Joined: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:44 am
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Just for my curiosity:-
Does dispatch not look at landing distance as part of the pre-departure paperwork?
Is there a requirement to compute landing distance at Canadian carriers?
My company uses the airbus flysmart software - very easy to use. Boeing must have something similar - I was using a laptop for Performance on the 757 in 2001.
Does dispatch not look at landing distance as part of the pre-departure paperwork?
Is there a requirement to compute landing distance at Canadian carriers?
My company uses the airbus flysmart software - very easy to use. Boeing must have something similar - I was using a laptop for Performance on the 757 in 2001.
Always fly a stable approach - it's the only stability you'll find in this business
- complexintentions
- Rank 10
- Posts: 2183
- Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:49 pm
- Location: of my pants is unknown.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Ho hum. Another winter in Canada, another runway overrun. Glad no one was hurt.
I sure wish I could find that thread with the guy going off about the superiority of Western carriers versus Asian ones vis a vis overruns...but I guess I can understand why he removed his comments!
I sure wish I could find that thread with the guy going off about the superiority of Western carriers versus Asian ones vis a vis overruns...but I guess I can understand why he removed his comments!
I’m still waiting for my white male privilege membership card. Must have gotten lost in the mail.
-
- Rank 2
- Posts: 62
- Joined: Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:11 pm
Re: Westjet CYHZ
One slight correction:Hugh Jasshole wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:07 pm On a 737NG there is a mechanical squat switch on the right landing gear scissors. A bowden cable runs up the gear leg into the wheel well and terminates at a hydraulic valve with some electrical switches. Once this cable pulls the valve open, hydraulics can deploy the inner speed brakes on top of the wing. Also electrical switch on valve sends a signal to the PSEU to tell thrust reversers that aircraft is on ground and then the TR's can open. TR's and speed brakes cannot deploy unless right landing gear is compressed (on ground).
The 737NG TR can open at or below 10ft Radar Altitude. This is strictly a safety design in case the WOW switch fails, rather than a design promoting TR use in flight. FCOM 7.20.14
Cheers.
CFM
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Eric Janson wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:17 am Just for my curiosity:-
Does dispatch not look at landing distance as part of the pre-departure paperwork?
Is there a requirement to compute landing distance at Canadian carriers?
My company uses the airbus flysmart software - very easy to use. Boeing must have something similar - I was using a laptop for Performance on the 757 in 2001.
Yes Dispatch in Canada (or the PIC) does but remember for landing performance the only numbers are Dry/Wet, unlike for takeoff where we have contamination levels.
Getting updated RSCs can be like pulling teeth at most airports in Canada. We often get the "nothing has changed so there is no requirement to provide an update" speech. Then when we insist the conditions are often markedly worse.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Is it just me or does Halifax have a rate of incidences/accidents as of late? I can recall a 747 going off the end on rwy 14 last year or something?
Re: Westjet CYHZ
What do you mean the only numbers you have for landing are dry/wet?YYZatcboy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:20 pmEric Janson wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:17 am Just for my curiosity:-
Does dispatch not look at landing distance as part of the pre-departure paperwork?
Is there a requirement to compute landing distance at Canadian carriers?
My company uses the airbus flysmart software - very easy to use. Boeing must have something similar - I was using a laptop for Performance on the 757 in 2001.
Yes Dispatch in Canada (or the PIC) does but remember for landing performance the only numbers are Dry/Wet, unlike for takeoff where we have contamination levels.
Getting updated RSCs can be like pulling teeth at most airports in Canada. We often get the "nothing has changed so there is no requirement to provide an update" speech. Then when we insist the conditions are often markedly worse.
Maybe you should tell management to $pring for the tools and data for you to do your jobs safely.
Maybe leak it to CBC anonymously that you aren't provided with data for landing on winter runway conditions if that's indeed what you're saying.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
As I said PRIOR TO DISPATCH (The question was "Does dispatch not look at landing distance as part of the pre-departure paperwork?") the only LEGAL numbers are for DRY/WET. This is the Dispatch Landing Field Length. The Inflight factored landing distance calculation can include contamination levels and different runway contaminants. But that is not the LEGAL dispatch field length prior to takeoff. Good airmanship of course dictates that contamination levels be taken into account prior to dispatch but that is NOT part of the Dispatch landing field length. We provide data in a Takeoff and landing report that has both sets of numbers, but again the legal ones for the Dispatch landing field length is only Dry/Wet.altiplano wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:35 pmWhat do you mean the only numbers you have for landing are dry/wet?YYZatcboy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:20 pmEric Janson wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2020 3:17 am Just for my curiosity:-
Does dispatch not look at landing distance as part of the pre-departure paperwork?
Is there a requirement to compute landing distance at Canadian carriers?
My company uses the airbus flysmart software - very easy to use. Boeing must have something similar - I was using a laptop for Performance on the 757 in 2001.
Yes Dispatch in Canada (or the PIC) does but remember for landing performance the only numbers are Dry/Wet, unlike for takeoff where we have contamination levels.
Getting updated RSCs can be like pulling teeth at most airports in Canada. We often get the "nothing has changed so there is no requirement to provide an update" speech. Then when we insist the conditions are often markedly worse.
Maybe you should tell management to $pring for the tools and data for you to do your jobs safely.
Maybe leak it to CBC anonymously that you aren't provided with data for landing on winter runway conditions if that's indeed what you're saying.
I will grant that my post could have been clearer above.
Below are the relevant CAR/CASS references:
Dispatch Limitations: Landing at Destination and Alternate Aerodromes
* 705.60 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no person shall dispatch or conduct a take-off in an aeroplane unless
* (a) the weight of the aeroplane on landing at the destination aerodrome will allow a full-stop landing
* (i) in the case of a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane, within 60 per cent of the landing distance available (LDA), or
* (ii) in the case of a propeller-driven aeroplane, within 70 per cent of the landing distance available (LDA); and
* (b) the weight of the aeroplane on landing at the alternate aerodrome will allow a full-stop landing
* (i) in the case of a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane, within 60 per cent of the landing distance available (LDA), and
* (ii) in the case of a propeller-driven aeroplane, within 70 per cent of the landing distance available (LDA).
* (2) In determining whether an aeroplane can be dispatched or a take-off can be conducted in accordance with subsection (1), the following shall be taken into account:
* (a) the pressure-altitude at the destination aerodrome and at the alternate aerodrome;
* (b) not more than 50 per cent of the reported headwind component or not less than 150 per cent of the reported tailwind component; and
* (c) that the aeroplane must be landed on a suitable runway, considering the wind speed and direction, the ground handling characteristics of the aeroplane, and other conditions such as landing aids and terrain.
* (3) Where conditions at the destination aerodrome at the time of take-off do not permit compliance with paragraph (2)(c), an aeroplane may be dispatched and a take-off conducted if the alternate aerodrome designated in the operational flight plan permits, at the time of take-off, compliance with paragraph (1)(b) and subsection (2).
Dispatch Limitations: Wet Runway — Turbo-jet-powered Aeroplanes
* 705.61 (1) Subject to subsection (2), when weather reports or forecasts indicate that the runway may be wet at the estimated time of arrival, no air operator shall dispatch or conduct a take-off in a turbo-jet-powered aeroplane unless the landing distance available (LDA) at the destination aerodrome is at least 115 per cent of the landing distance required pursuant to paragraph 705.60(1)(a).
* (2) The landing distance available on a wet runway may be shorter than that required by subsection (1), but not shorter than that required by section 705.60, if the aircraft flight manual includes specific information about landing distances on wet runways. 745.61 Dispatch Limitations: Wet Runway - Turbo-Jet-Powered Aeroplanes
R745.61(2) - Dispatch Limitations - Wet Runway
A runway is deemed to be wet when there is sufficient moisture on its surface to cause it to be reflective. In this case, additional landing distances, required for dispatch, must be available. Most AFMs do not contain wet runway landing distances. Should an air operator wish relief from the 115% requirement, wet runway landing distances must be demonstrated to Transport Canada in accordance with a test program approved by Transport Canada.
If a flight has been planned to a dry destination and unforeseen precipitation makes the planned runway wet, the flight can continue so long as the aeroplane can stop on the runway available plus 15 percent.
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Jeezus such a long thread with so much dissection to a simple overrun which will boil down to a basic chain of events. Seems that everyone wants to armchair quarterback events when there is an incident no matter how small it is. Decision making and human factors is the weakest link in aviation now. Even the max disasters would have been prevented if the human factor in pilot decision making had made the correct choices. The true tragic factor was the short comings of crew training. It was manageable if they had been given the information and training. Ironically everything falls to the lowest common denominator. Atlas is another example.
We can quote procedures and rules but crew actions at the event horizon still and will always dictate the outcome until aircraft become fully automated.
We can quote procedures and rules but crew actions at the event horizon still and will always dictate the outcome until aircraft become fully automated.
Black air has no lift - extra fuel has no weight
http://www.blackair.ca
http://www.blackair.ca
Re: Westjet CYHZ
Yes, Halifax does seem to have an abnormally high number of incidents, some their fault, some not.
- the cargo aircraft that crashed during take-off using the Boeing performance laptop using the wrong figures, not their fault.
- the recent cargo aircraft that ran off the runway with a quartering tailwind; not their fault.
- the AC A320 that landed short, CYHZ and NAV CANADA partially at fault for inadequate runway lighting (the former) and a lack of an ILS (the latter) at an airport with a lot of crappy weather.
This whole thread is really making a mountain out of a molehill. Given the weather conditions, runway conditions, etc that airline pilots have to deal with in this country, having the nosewheel go off the end of a runway at 5 kts is really not a big deal.