Perimeter Shamattawa

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contactapproved
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Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by contactapproved » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:53 pm

Some pics starting to circulate of a Perimeter Metro off the edge in Shamattawa. Initial word is no one injured.

download/file.php?mode=view&id=15956
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DCL415
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by DCL415 » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:40 pm

Perimeter update
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flyingnorm
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by flyingnorm » Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:55 pm

Is the runway cleared?
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telex
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by telex » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm

Is the Metroliner such a masterpiece of an airplane that there is nothing else that could do the job?
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:37 pm

Student practice in Shamattawa !
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by corethatthermal » Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:44 pm

Looking at the leetle tires and the big snow on the rwy, I would ave thought TC or Shammattttawa dept of roads would have at least required the beast be chained up !
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Mick G
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by Mick G » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:32 am

Curious, does contact with snow bank classify as a prop strike? Even if no damage, my guess is that it probably would? If so, this will be expensive.........
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atc_is_god
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by atc_is_god » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:52 am

Just leave that noisy, beaten-up airplane right there to be stripped of its parts.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by GoinVertical » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:26 am

telex wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm
Is the Metroliner such a masterpiece of an airplane that there is nothing else that could do the job?
Not at near those operating costs! I hear total operating costs per hour of a 1900D are almost double those of a Metro...
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by WestTexasDeathPencil » Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:22 pm

GoinVertical wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:26 am
telex wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm
Is the Metroliner such a masterpiece of an airplane that there is nothing else that could do the job?
Not at near those operating costs! I hear total operating costs per hour of a 1900D are almost double those of a Metro...
That's a tough price to pay for a lifetime of hearing damage and back problems.
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cpt sweet'njuicy
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by cpt sweet'njuicy » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:22 pm

telex wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm
Is the Metroliner such a masterpiece of an airplane that there is nothing else that could do the job?
It is a masterpiece when guided by a master. It is a dangerous piece of shit when guided by a dangerous piece of shit. I hope this helps
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:05 pm

WestTexasDeathPencil wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:22 pm
GoinVertical wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:26 am
telex wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm
Is the Metroliner such a masterpiece of an airplane that there is nothing else that could do the job?
Not at near those operating costs! I hear total operating costs per hour of a 1900D are almost double those of a Metro...
That's a tough price to pay for a lifetime of hearing damage and back problems.
Neither airplane belongs in the north. They both need 5000' of runway to carry a load in the summer, maybe 6000 for the texas death pencil.

How's Perimeter solving their balanced field length problem on the Metro 3?
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by digits_ » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:08 pm

goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:05 pm
WestTexasDeathPencil wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:22 pm
GoinVertical wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:26 am


Not at near those operating costs! I hear total operating costs per hour of a 1900D are almost double those of a Metro...
That's a tough price to pay for a lifetime of hearing damage and back problems.
Neither airplane belongs in the north. They both need 5000' of runway to carry a load in the summer, maybe 6000 for the texas death pencil.

How's Perimeter solving their balanced field length problem on the Metro 3?
Some of the rumours I've heard is that their numbers (for landing) assume you touch down in the first 200 ft of the runway (vs 1000 ft for "normal" operations). For take off, I don't know. Didn't they remove all the insulation from the plane to make it lighter?

I agree that a metro does not belong up north. Things can go wrong quickly in that plane, and the gravel runways simply don't have the length/width or facilities to deal with it properly.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by bobcaygeon » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:32 pm

They're up to 8-10 Dash 8's now so evolution is happening.

There has been a 19 seat airplane built in 15 years and nothing pressurized is on the radar. A fast twin otter by Cessna built for fedex 1st and people 2nd (sounds like the caravan) is all there is coming down the pipe and it's using 80's era ancient pt6-65 engines (1900C has them)
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by goingnowherefast » Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:39 pm

bobcaygeon wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:32 pm
They're up to 8-10 Dash 8's now so evolution is happening.

There has been a 19 seat airplane built in 15 years and nothing pressurized is on the radar. A fast twin otter by Cessna built for fedex 1st and people 2nd (sounds like the caravan) is all there is coming down the pipe and it's using 80's era ancient pt6-65 engines (1900C has them)
Am I to understand Perimeter is parking the 704 fleet in favour of expanding the Dash 8 fleet? I sure hope so.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by ei ei owe » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am

digits_ wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:08 pm
goingnowherefast wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:05 pm
WestTexasDeathPencil wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:22 pm


That's a tough price to pay for a lifetime of hearing damage and back problems.
Neither airplane belongs in the north. They both need 5000' of runway to carry a load in the summer, maybe 6000 for the texas death pencil.

How's Perimeter solving their balanced field length problem on the Metro 3?
Some of the rumours I've heard is that their numbers (for landing) assume you touch down in the first 200 ft of the runway (vs 1000 ft for "normal" operations). For take off, I don't know. Didn't they remove all the insulation from the plane to make it lighter?

I agree that a metro does not belong up north. Things can go wrong quickly in that plane, and the gravel runways simply don't have the length/width or facilities to deal with it properly.
Wow, that went anti Metro pretty quick. Yes, there was an accident up north. Was there a similar thread about B200s after the many accidents they've had?

I'd like an explanation as to why the plane doesn't belong up north? Other than a personal opinion...

Balanced field has been solved since the first day PAG operated them. Use the approved manufacturer's charts just like any balanced field operation.

The insulation in a Metro 3 is part of the type certificate and is not removed.

While the Metro 2 is admittedly loud, the 3 is not ear splitting like everyone says.

If you don't agree that, due to "thing going wrong quickly", a Metro doesn't belong up north I suggest you stick to something slower & lighter and fly to wider & longer runways.

There's been more than a few 1900 operators try up north and none could make a go of it. I think the real conversation should be why a 1900 doesn't belong up north!!
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by Caterpillar » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:20 am

ei ei owe wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am
There's been more than a few 1900 operators try up north and none could make a go of it. I think the real conversation should be why a 1900 doesn't belong up north!!
There is actually more 1900 north of 60 than Metros...
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by co-joe » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:25 am

When the height of the snowbank exceeds the height of your wings, it might be time to start refusing to land there until better snow removal infrastructure is put in place.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by pelmet » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:50 am

co-joe wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:25 am
When the height of the snowbank exceeds the height of your wings, it might be time to start refusing to land there until better snow removal infrastructure is put in place.
I know that at certain airports, there are strict rules governing snowbanks(perhaps someone could give the details). I wonder if these northern airports fall into that category of requirements.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by plausiblyannonymous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:03 am

co-joe wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:25 am
When the height of the snowbank exceeds the height of your wings, it might be time to start refusing to land there until better snow removal infrastructure is put in place.
Nah, those snow banks prevented the aircraft from really going off the side of the runway.

Think of them like bumpers in the bowling alley.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by digits_ » Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:21 pm

ei ei owe wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am


I'd like an explanation as to why the plane doesn't belong up north? Other than a personal opinion...

-not certified for anti ice fluid
-unreliable nosewheel steering system
-very nose heavy. if the nosewheelsteering craps out on a narrow gravel strip, you end up in the ditch
-relatively hard to start with weak or cold batteries
-low prop clearance which is terrible for gravel ops
-things break all the time
-stupid high doors for loading

All these things can be managed, and perimeter does so, but that doesnt mean the plane belongs up north. It is a great plane from an accounting point of view, but that is about the only plus.

I would take a B200 over a metro any day for northern ops.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by piperdriver » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:13 pm

^Well said, could not agree more.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by Meatservo » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:48 pm

cpt sweet'njuicy wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:22 pm
telex wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:33 pm
Is the Metroliner such a masterpiece of an airplane that there is nothing else that could do the job?
It is a masterpiece when guided by a master. It is a dangerous piece of shit when guided by a dangerous piece of shit. I hope this helps
This is true of any aeroplane. Smartest thing I've read all week.
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by Maynard » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:04 pm

digits_ wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:21 pm
ei ei owe wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am


I'd like an explanation as to why the plane doesn't belong up north? Other than a personal opinion...

-not certified for anti ice fluid De ice fluid can be applied an airborne within minutes on a res
-unreliable nosewheel steering system 9 Years and I never had a problem. Flew multiple pairings with it in-op, no biggie if you have a feel for it
-very nose heavy. if the nosewheelsteering craps out on a narrow gravel strip, you end up in the ditch Again, not likely. Maybe winter with no rfi
-relatively hard to start with weak or cold batteries yep agree here, although the MT props fire up fast and cold
-low prop clearance which is terrible for gravel ops Agree
-things break all the time Yep
-stupid high doors for loading sure

All these things can be managed, and perimeter does so, but that doesnt mean the plane belongs up north. It is a great plane from an accounting point of view, but that is about the only plus.

I would take a B200 over a metro any day for northern ops. A B200 will never carry the same load
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Re: Perimeter Shamattawa

Post by goingnowherefast » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:19 pm

The balanced field length problem was "solved" by doctoring the numbers. The rumour I heard was using the 200' clearways on both ends to turn a 3500' runway into a "3900' runway". Then also take credit for a static take-off on gravel as well.

The 1900 doesn't belong in the north either. The Metro is the square peg in the round hole problem. The 1900 is the same square peg, but a hammer (more power) to at least get somewhere. The 1900 is certified for anti-ice fluid as well, but suffers from the same low prop problem.

I compare the 1900 in the north to driving a robertson screw with a philips driver. Yeah it kinda works, but not well. Metro would be using a slotted driver. Can be done, but you'll wreck something.
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