Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:54 pm I wonder how many pilots reading this thread double or triple check that the landing gear is down and locked after completing their checklist.

Be honest photofly...do you?
I check lots of things, as often as possible. I haven't yet invented for myself the following formal procedure:
The last thing you do before getting in the aircraft is your final check. I have my own one that covers the variety of general aviation aircraft that I fly....

I start at the front of the aircraft and say either to myself or out loud as I walk around the aircraft, no towbar, no intake plugs, no chocks, no tiedowns, oil cap secure, fuel caps secure, no pitot cover, no external locks, baggage door secure.

Takes about 30 seconds and ensures that none of these items are missed
Except that it doesn't ensure that any of these items are missed, any more than any other checklist ensures that none of these items are missed.
Yes you do. And if you don't, you ain't too bright. Good night.
Yes, I'm clearly very very stupid. Good edit to your post, and great observation. Well done.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Bottom line, you double check your gear. Most likely because you have decided that it is an important item. I double check other things as well.

Just like your double checking of the gear almost certainly doesn’t negatively affect your checklist management, neither does my technique. It is just the intelligent thing to do. And I have expanded its scope.
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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

The gap that your "procedure" fails to address is the gap between intention and reality. If the intention to double check the gear was all it took, nobody would ever land gear-up.

To put it bluntly: if you can guarantee to be so bloody effective and reliable at doing last minute walk-around checks as you claim, you couldn't possibly have any difficulty stowing the tow bar, removing the cowl plugs and doing up the fuel caps in the first place.
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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

double post
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Bottom line.....your double checking of the gear EVERY time you land a retractable gear aircraft completely undercuts all you arguments.

But it is a very smart thing for you to do.

Good job.
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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

pelmet wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:25 am Bottom line.....your double checking of the gear EVERY time you land a retractable gear aircraft completely undercuts all you arguments.
If you genuinely think that, I have very clearly done a lousy job of explaining!

However - now that you have your private and silent pre-getting in the aircraft checklist, if at any time you ever still get the heebie jeebies that you missed something, and get out to check, or (I hope not) taxi away with something undone, you will understand my point that more checklists aren't the answer.
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digits_
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

Image
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 7:22 am
pelmet wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 6:25 am Bottom line.....your double checking of the gear EVERY time you land a retractable gear aircraft completely undercuts all you arguments.
If you genuinely think that, I have very clearly done a lousy job of explaining!
Ok, maybe you don’t check the gear every time. Not good airmanship.
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digits_
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:03 am
Ok, maybe you don’t check the gear every time. Not good airmanship.
Oh you didn't, did you?

I'll call this, in a narcissist way, Digits's 2nd law:
As a discusson on AvCanada grows longer and one party runs out of arguments, it will be posted that the other party is using bad airmanship for doing something in a different way. The party making that claim will then have lost the argument.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by Squaretail »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 12:02 pm
I'm surprised that nobody has commented on the real point of this story, which is that he was rattled from his earlier incident with the cyclist and it affected his performance. He probably shouldn't have gone flying at all. That's the learning point here - distraction and fitness to fly - not final checks.
As an aside, I think you hit upon the real point of this accident a lot of posts back. One has to take note of when there are distractions or irregularities introduced into anything that may be normally routine. The fitness to fly aspect of it is certainly worth noting as a separate yet related topic. I have to say when I have encountered in the flying world working with someone who is definitely not up to their usual standard, there's always something behind it. Every time its been notable enough to ask, you get an answer related to some sort of physical, social or emotional stress that always leads me to ask: "Why the hell are you flying an airplane today?!"

People don't leave towbars on airplanes because they weren't taught properly or didn't have the correct check format. Occasionally they might because they're just plain careless in everything they do, that I feel is fortunately extremely rare, but most often the root cause is a distraction or disruption in their process at the wrong time.

I do have a hard time with someone who manages to get airborne with one attached though, you got to feel or hear something is not right with the plane somewhere in that chain of events. You have to be especially oblivious for something not to have caught your attention.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:33 am As a discusson on AvCanada grows longer and one party runs out of arguments, it will be posted that the other party is using bad airmanship for doing something in a different way. The party making that claim will then have lost the argument.
Well, lets not worry about winning or losing the argument and worry about safety. I think pretty much all that can be said has been said.

I will leave it up to people reading through the thread to decide for themselves what they feel is appropriate.

Once again, I do feel that it is inevitable that pilots will get airborne with towbar on, fuel/oil caps off, baggage door unlatched, etc. Doing a final check in my opinion just once before each flight is almost certainly likely to catch these items. One should consider that Photofly feels that this is unnecessary for reasons such as "If you missed the loose fuel cap on your walkaround, what's to say that you'll spot it on your final check?" Meanwhile, Digits feels that some of the items I suggested such as baggage door opening are in his opinion not critical. As well, it has been suggested that doing a final check could give someone the impression that your walkaround is less important, so this should be considered prior to following through on my advice.

As well, I will still recommend after all checklist are complete prior to takeoff, to check those critical items that if in the wrong position could lead to an accident as it has happened so many times. However, one should consider that photofly feels that this could make someone less likely to utilize their checklist properly and Digits feels that the result could make a pilot feel that items on their checklist are not that important and make it more likely to miss something on the checklists. Obviously these are things that one should consider if they decide to follow my recommendation.
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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

I do think if you can’t accurately represent what I wrote, you shouldn’t try.

Final checks are great. Creating yourself a checklist and smugly imagining it solves all problems and should be universally adopted, is not.
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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

I really don't understand the fetishization of checklists in the aviation industry. When I backed into my garage without allowing sufficient time for the door to rise and thereby damaged the radio antenna on the car roof, nobody suggested that I add to or create an "entering the garage" checklist. I just repaired the antenna and made a mental note to wait for the door to open fully before reversing. As a strategy it has been 100% effective.

I don't need a checklist for leaving the garage either:

seatbelt - ENGAGE
key - INSERT
parking brake - CONFIRM
ignition - ENERGIZE
gear selector - AS APPROPRIATE
door - CONFIRM FULLY OPEN
foot brake - APPLY
parking brake - RELEASE
way clear - CONFRM
foot brake - RELEASE GRADUALLY
steering - AVOID GARAGE DOORPOSTS

Naturally this is a piston powered Honda CR-V, approved in Canada for single driver operations. Perhaps if you drive really big transport vehicles, you do need checklists to ensure safety. But that's not my bailiwick.

While contributing to this thread last night I went through a bunch of checklists, removed one and deleted about five redundant items from the rest. I consider that time really well spent. Every check list item deleted is an angel born. Every whole checklist deleted is new plane of heaven created, for those angels to inhabit and enjoy.


I have a single piston engine-powered training plane with a fixed pitch propeller and fixed gear, whose manufacturer's approved flight manual has a checklist TEN full pages long between arriving at the airplane, and takeoff. This is just INSANE.


So maybe I carry a lot of baggage in this subject matter, but you are never going to get me to rejoice in the prospect of yet another list of things to check and do.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:11 pm I do think if you can’t accurately represent what I wrote, you shouldn’t try.
Thanks,

Feel free to give specific examples of where I did not accurately represent you. I will gladly change any post where you show this. Added later Guess what? he never did give an example and we all know why.

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm I really don't understand the fetishization of checklists in the aviation industry. When I backed into my garage without allowing sufficient time for the door to rise and thereby damaged the radio antenna on the car roof, nobody suggested that I add to or create an "entering the garage" checklist. I just repaired the antenna and made a mental note to wait for the door to open fully before reversing. As a strategy it has been 100% effective.

I don't need a checklist for leaving the garage either:

seatbelt - ENGAGE
key - INSERT
parking brake - CONFIRM
ignition - ENERGIZE
gear selector - AS APPROPRIATE
door - CONFIRM FULLY OPEN
foot brake - APPLY
parking brake - RELEASE
way clear - CONFRM
foot brake - RELEASE GRADUALLY
steering - AVOID GARAGE DOORPOSTS

Naturally this is a piston powered Honda CR-V, approved in Canada for single driver operations. Perhaps if you drive really big transport vehicles, you do need checklists to ensure safety. But that's not my bailiwick.

While contributing to this thread last night I went through a bunch of checklists, removed one and deleted about five redundant items from the rest. I consider that time really well spent. Every check list item deleted is an angel born. Every whole checklist deleted is new plane of heaven created, for those angels to inhabit and enjoy.


I have a single piston engine-powered training plane with a fixed pitch propeller and fixed gear, whose manufacturer's approved flight manual has a checklist TEN full pages long between arriving at the airplane, and takeoff. This is just INSANE.


So maybe I carry a lot of baggage in this subject matter, but you are never going to get me to rejoice in the prospect of yet another list of things to check and do.
Thanks for your view on things. The car stuff was very interesting about your thinking on on things. I don't have anything to add to what I have already said but I will post any related incidents in the future that I come across where either your method or my method could have saved the day.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 am
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:51 am
Chris M wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:44 am Definitely left it on until takeoff. My bet is that it fell off after rotation/liftoff since anything sooner would have been a pretty good bump to him and hopefully gotten his attention. The damage to that towbar wasn't caused by someone dragging it while walking around.

Moral of the story: If you don't have clear, positive memory of performing a task, assume you didn't. I had one day where I couldn't remember if I'd put the caps back on after fueling the 172. Fueled, pushed back, got in the plane, briefed passengers, just about to start up but couldn't get the itch out of my brain that something wasn't right so I got out to check. Sure enough, one cap left off.
This can all be easily prevented. The last thing you do before getting in the aircraft is your final check. I have my own one that covers the variety of general aviation aircraft that I fly....

I start at the front of the aircraft and say either to myself or out loud as I walk around the aircraft, no towbar, no intake plugs, no chocks, no tiedowns, oil cap secure, fuel caps secure, no pitot cover, no external locks, baggage door secure.

Takes about 30 seconds and ensures that none of these items are missed and that you don't have to undo your seat belt and go back outside to check if it suddenly dawns on you that you are not 100% sure about these items. A simple thing that I bet that virtually no school or instructor teaches their student learning to fly.

Why do I do it? Because I am the kind of guy that would eventually have one of these items happen to me....or maybe I already have.
The problem is, if you do this every flight, at one point it will become some automatic reflix, and you might still miss thing. The longer the list of items you check, the higher the chance you will miss something. Especially if it is the second time you check it, it gives the impression the first time is not important.

If you really want to check stuff right before departure, stick to the real killer items.

baggage door secure: usually not critical
Too bad this pilot didn't take the few seconds to simply walk around the aircraft just prior to buckling up to check my recommended items(as tailored to specific aircraft type). Baggage doors are frequently operated after the walkaround yet still well prior to getting into the aircraft to start the engine(s). If the pilot had been doing this for each flight, at minimum, it would have prevented a possibly damaged door, embarrassment, and inconvenience. At maximum(and most CRITICAL of all)....He wouldn't have died that day....

https://books.google.ca/books?id=kEDGeb ... or&f=false

Do the final post walkaround check just prior to getting in to start the aircraft.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:04 am
digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 am
If you really want to check stuff right before departure, stick to the real killer items.

baggage door secure: usually not critical
Too bad this pilot didn't take the few seconds to simply walk around the aircraft just prior to buckling up to check my recommended items(as tailored to specific aircraft type). Baggage doors are frequently operated after the walkaround yet still well prior to getting into the aircraft to start the engine(s). If the pilot had been doing this for each flight, at minimum, it would have prevented a possibly damaged door, embarrassment, and inconvenience. At maximum(and most CRITICAL of all)....He wouldn't have died that day....

https://books.google.ca/books?id=kEDGeb ... or&f=false

Do the final post walkaround check just prior to getting in to start the aircraft.
Ok, a few remarks.

1) I said it was "usually not critical". By definition, that implies that there are planes where it is critical. However...
2) It is not a critical item on the airplane in your example. Did you read your own link? If so, this is a pretty hefty case of confirmation bias:
- article says the airplane is certified to fly with an open baggage door. It is a distraction, but has no unusual characteristics
- "many pilots have had a door open on take off" ... "if the plane is still flying under control, it is time to think, not to act"
- pilot overreacted and shut down the right engine and feathered the left engine. Sounds like he was convinced the unlocked baggage door was a critical item that would prevent him from flying. Hmmmm, I wonder who else thinks that? .....


Some basic systems knowledge would go a long way. This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by A346Dude »

I personally will be starting a Checklist checklist to make sure I don't forget any of my checklists.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

I'm slightly bored, so will post this morning's checklist:

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Jam: APPLY
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digits_
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm I
seatbelt - ENGAGE
key - INSERT
parking brake - CONFIRM
ignition - ENERGIZE
gear selector - AS APPROPRIATE
door - CONFIRM FULLY OPEN
foot brake - APPLY
parking brake - RELEASE
way clear - CONFRM
foot brake - RELEASE GRADUALLY
steering - AVOID GARAGE DOORPOSTS
I tried this, but I ripped off my car door while following this checklist.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 am This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
Doesn't change the fact that his pax would be alive if he had somehow been able to follow my advice. I'm sure the pax would find the last two or three post very funny if they had the chance to read them, although their lives could never have been saved by them.
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