Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:33 am As a discusson on AvCanada grows longer and one party runs out of arguments, it will be posted that the other party is using bad airmanship for doing something in a different way. The party making that claim will then have lost the argument.
Well, lets not worry about winning or losing the argument and worry about safety. I think pretty much all that can be said has been said.

I will leave it up to people reading through the thread to decide for themselves what they feel is appropriate.

Once again, I do feel that it is inevitable that pilots will get airborne with towbar on, fuel/oil caps off, baggage door unlatched, etc. Doing a final check in my opinion just once before each flight is almost certainly likely to catch these items. One should consider that Photofly feels that this is unnecessary for reasons such as "If you missed the loose fuel cap on your walkaround, what's to say that you'll spot it on your final check?" Meanwhile, Digits feels that some of the items I suggested such as baggage door opening are in his opinion not critical. As well, it has been suggested that doing a final check could give someone the impression that your walkaround is less important, so this should be considered prior to following through on my advice.

As well, I will still recommend after all checklist are complete prior to takeoff, to check those critical items that if in the wrong position could lead to an accident as it has happened so many times. However, one should consider that photofly feels that this could make someone less likely to utilize their checklist properly and Digits feels that the result could make a pilot feel that items on their checklist are not that important and make it more likely to miss something on the checklists. Obviously these are things that one should consider if they decide to follow my recommendation.
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photofly
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

I do think if you can’t accurately represent what I wrote, you shouldn’t try.

Final checks are great. Creating yourself a checklist and smugly imagining it solves all problems and should be universally adopted, is not.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by photofly »

I really don't understand the fetishization of checklists in the aviation industry. When I backed into my garage without allowing sufficient time for the door to rise and thereby damaged the radio antenna on the car roof, nobody suggested that I add to or create an "entering the garage" checklist. I just repaired the antenna and made a mental note to wait for the door to open fully before reversing. As a strategy it has been 100% effective.

I don't need a checklist for leaving the garage either:

seatbelt - ENGAGE
key - INSERT
parking brake - CONFIRM
ignition - ENERGIZE
gear selector - AS APPROPRIATE
door - CONFIRM FULLY OPEN
foot brake - APPLY
parking brake - RELEASE
way clear - CONFRM
foot brake - RELEASE GRADUALLY
steering - AVOID GARAGE DOORPOSTS

Naturally this is a piston powered Honda CR-V, approved in Canada for single driver operations. Perhaps if you drive really big transport vehicles, you do need checklists to ensure safety. But that's not my bailiwick.

While contributing to this thread last night I went through a bunch of checklists, removed one and deleted about five redundant items from the rest. I consider that time really well spent. Every check list item deleted is an angel born. Every whole checklist deleted is new plane of heaven created, for those angels to inhabit and enjoy.


I have a single piston engine-powered training plane with a fixed pitch propeller and fixed gear, whose manufacturer's approved flight manual has a checklist TEN full pages long between arriving at the airplane, and takeoff. This is just INSANE.


So maybe I carry a lot of baggage in this subject matter, but you are never going to get me to rejoice in the prospect of yet another list of things to check and do.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:11 pm I do think if you can’t accurately represent what I wrote, you shouldn’t try.
Thanks,

Feel free to give specific examples of where I did not accurately represent you. I will gladly change any post where you show this. Added later Guess what? he never did give an example and we all know why.

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm I really don't understand the fetishization of checklists in the aviation industry. When I backed into my garage without allowing sufficient time for the door to rise and thereby damaged the radio antenna on the car roof, nobody suggested that I add to or create an "entering the garage" checklist. I just repaired the antenna and made a mental note to wait for the door to open fully before reversing. As a strategy it has been 100% effective.

I don't need a checklist for leaving the garage either:

seatbelt - ENGAGE
key - INSERT
parking brake - CONFIRM
ignition - ENERGIZE
gear selector - AS APPROPRIATE
door - CONFIRM FULLY OPEN
foot brake - APPLY
parking brake - RELEASE
way clear - CONFRM
foot brake - RELEASE GRADUALLY
steering - AVOID GARAGE DOORPOSTS

Naturally this is a piston powered Honda CR-V, approved in Canada for single driver operations. Perhaps if you drive really big transport vehicles, you do need checklists to ensure safety. But that's not my bailiwick.

While contributing to this thread last night I went through a bunch of checklists, removed one and deleted about five redundant items from the rest. I consider that time really well spent. Every check list item deleted is an angel born. Every whole checklist deleted is new plane of heaven created, for those angels to inhabit and enjoy.


I have a single piston engine-powered training plane with a fixed pitch propeller and fixed gear, whose manufacturer's approved flight manual has a checklist TEN full pages long between arriving at the airplane, and takeoff. This is just INSANE.


So maybe I carry a lot of baggage in this subject matter, but you are never going to get me to rejoice in the prospect of yet another list of things to check and do.
Thanks for your view on things. The car stuff was very interesting about your thinking on on things. I don't have anything to add to what I have already said but I will post any related incidents in the future that I come across where either your method or my method could have saved the day.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 am
pelmet wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:51 am
Chris M wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:44 am Definitely left it on until takeoff. My bet is that it fell off after rotation/liftoff since anything sooner would have been a pretty good bump to him and hopefully gotten his attention. The damage to that towbar wasn't caused by someone dragging it while walking around.

Moral of the story: If you don't have clear, positive memory of performing a task, assume you didn't. I had one day where I couldn't remember if I'd put the caps back on after fueling the 172. Fueled, pushed back, got in the plane, briefed passengers, just about to start up but couldn't get the itch out of my brain that something wasn't right so I got out to check. Sure enough, one cap left off.
This can all be easily prevented. The last thing you do before getting in the aircraft is your final check. I have my own one that covers the variety of general aviation aircraft that I fly....

I start at the front of the aircraft and say either to myself or out loud as I walk around the aircraft, no towbar, no intake plugs, no chocks, no tiedowns, oil cap secure, fuel caps secure, no pitot cover, no external locks, baggage door secure.

Takes about 30 seconds and ensures that none of these items are missed and that you don't have to undo your seat belt and go back outside to check if it suddenly dawns on you that you are not 100% sure about these items. A simple thing that I bet that virtually no school or instructor teaches their student learning to fly.

Why do I do it? Because I am the kind of guy that would eventually have one of these items happen to me....or maybe I already have.
The problem is, if you do this every flight, at one point it will become some automatic reflix, and you might still miss thing. The longer the list of items you check, the higher the chance you will miss something. Especially if it is the second time you check it, it gives the impression the first time is not important.

If you really want to check stuff right before departure, stick to the real killer items.

baggage door secure: usually not critical
Too bad this pilot didn't take the few seconds to simply walk around the aircraft just prior to buckling up to check my recommended items(as tailored to specific aircraft type). Baggage doors are frequently operated after the walkaround yet still well prior to getting into the aircraft to start the engine(s). If the pilot had been doing this for each flight, at minimum, it would have prevented a possibly damaged door, embarrassment, and inconvenience. At maximum(and most CRITICAL of all)....He wouldn't have died that day....

https://books.google.ca/books?id=kEDGeb ... or&f=false

Do the final post walkaround check just prior to getting in to start the aircraft.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:04 am
digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 am
If you really want to check stuff right before departure, stick to the real killer items.

baggage door secure: usually not critical
Too bad this pilot didn't take the few seconds to simply walk around the aircraft just prior to buckling up to check my recommended items(as tailored to specific aircraft type). Baggage doors are frequently operated after the walkaround yet still well prior to getting into the aircraft to start the engine(s). If the pilot had been doing this for each flight, at minimum, it would have prevented a possibly damaged door, embarrassment, and inconvenience. At maximum(and most CRITICAL of all)....He wouldn't have died that day....

https://books.google.ca/books?id=kEDGeb ... or&f=false

Do the final post walkaround check just prior to getting in to start the aircraft.
Ok, a few remarks.

1) I said it was "usually not critical". By definition, that implies that there are planes where it is critical. However...
2) It is not a critical item on the airplane in your example. Did you read your own link? If so, this is a pretty hefty case of confirmation bias:
- article says the airplane is certified to fly with an open baggage door. It is a distraction, but has no unusual characteristics
- "many pilots have had a door open on take off" ... "if the plane is still flying under control, it is time to think, not to act"
- pilot overreacted and shut down the right engine and feathered the left engine. Sounds like he was convinced the unlocked baggage door was a critical item that would prevent him from flying. Hmmmm, I wonder who else thinks that? .....


Some basic systems knowledge would go a long way. This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by A346Dude »

I personally will be starting a Checklist checklist to make sure I don't forget any of my checklists.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

I'm slightly bored, so will post this morning's checklist:

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Jam: APPLY
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

photofly wrote: Tue Jan 28, 2020 2:47 pm I
seatbelt - ENGAGE
key - INSERT
parking brake - CONFIRM
ignition - ENERGIZE
gear selector - AS APPROPRIATE
door - CONFIRM FULLY OPEN
foot brake - APPLY
parking brake - RELEASE
way clear - CONFRM
foot brake - RELEASE GRADUALLY
steering - AVOID GARAGE DOORPOSTS
I tried this, but I ripped off my car door while following this checklist.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 am This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
Doesn't change the fact that his pax would be alive if he had somehow been able to follow my advice. I'm sure the pax would find the last two or three post very funny if they had the chance to read them, although their lives could never have been saved by them.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

You just never know what the final check(which wasted 30 seconds of your life) might reveal for those who unfortunately already do poor walkarounds....

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22703

And there was no engine failure in this accident.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:49 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 am This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
Doesn't change the fact that his pax would be alive if he had somehow been able to follow my advice. I'm sure the pax would find the last two or three post very funny if they had the chance to read them, although their lives could never have been saved by them.
You don't think the bigger issue here is that a pilot and pax die because a baggage door blows open in flight in an aircraft that is certified to be able to fly with such an abnormality? Even if you lock the door and follow pelmet's final check, a failure like that can happen. Those latches don't last forever. On older planes it is not that uncommon they blow open at some point.

What would you do if that happens? Acknowledge that it happens, realize it is not that critical and in a controlled way return to the field, or consider it a time critical emergency and risk everything to get on the ground ASAP?
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:52 am You just never know what the final check(which wasted 30 seconds of your life) might reveal for those who unfortunately already do poor walkarounds....

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22703

And there was no engine failure in this accident.
What makes you think you would notice it during a quick 30 seconds check, if a thorough walk around inspection didn't reveal it?
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:49 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 am This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
Doesn't change the fact that his pax would be alive if he had somehow been able to follow my advice. I'm sure the pax would find the last two or three post very funny if they had the chance to read them, although their lives could never have been saved by them.
You don't think the bigger issue here is that a pilot and pax die because a baggage door blows open in flight in an aircraft that is certified to be able to fly with such an abnormality? Even if you lock the door and follow pelmet's final check, a failure like that can happen. Those latches don't last forever. On older planes it is not that uncommon they blow open at some point.

What would you do if that happens? Acknowledge that it happens, realize it is not that critical and in a controlled way return to the field, or consider it a time critical emergency and risk everything to get on the ground ASAP?
Nice theory and that is the way it should be...but the sad reality is that a significant amount of pilots did the wrong thing and crashed....AND...they would not have crashed had they just done a simple 30 second final check of items I recommend(as tailored to a particular aircraft) as the door wouldn't have opened.

Yes, a failure could happen resulting in an open baggage door and it has happened but it is extremely rare. Improperly latched doors will open on a regular basis. Happened to the owner of a Mooney I fly...door damage only but something I check carefully again just prior to departing. Oddly, it has never happened to me on the Mooney.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:14 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:52 am You just never know what the final check(which wasted 30 seconds of your life) might reveal for those who unfortunately already do poor walkarounds....

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22703

And there was no engine failure in this accident.
What makes you think you would notice it during a quick 30 seconds check, if a thorough walk around inspection didn't reveal it?
The likelihood that no detailed walkaround was done. Then again...no guarantees but the quick 30 second check will never make things worse.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Too bad this guy didn't check his oil cap just prior to getting into the aircraft to depart. After the walkaround he added fuel and oil and at some point departed. Regardless of pilot performance, a sequence of events happened that would not have happened if he just did a quick last minute check. Now he is dead. Probable would have found the car and toaster checklists on this thread hilarious if he(or the four skydivers on board who also died) had ever seen them....I bet the skydivers families might wish differently.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... l&IType=FA

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to maintain aircraft control while maneuvering to reverse direction. Factors included the airplane exceeding its maximum gross takeoff weight, the improper preflight by the pilot by not securing an oil cap, the low altitude, and an obstructed windshield.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/two-people-d ... -1.4620088

Maybe we should make checklists, so a driver doesn't drive the wrong way on the freeway, too. :roll:
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

I wonder whose posts in this thread could ever have the chance of saving lives. I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but I suppose just a reflection of character.

This poor guy was lucky to survive his mishandled event. Too bad he doesn't do a final check so that he would have removed his intake plugs. I bet he does now....

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 1512&key=1
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by North Shore »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:10 am I'm slightly bored, so will post this morning's checklist:

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Jam: APPLY
Morning Checklist #1, Rev 1

Reason for amendment: Insert 'Butter: APPLY'

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Butter: APPLY
Jam: APPLY
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am I wonder whose posts in this thread could ever have the chance of saving lives. I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but just a reflection of character.

This poor guy was lucky to survive his mishandled event. Too bad he doesn't do a final check so that he would have removed his intake plugs...

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 1512&key=1
Disagreement is fairly logical in an argument, but your "holier-than-thou-saviour-of-canadian-aviation-and-abroad" attitude is getting pretty tiresome.

At the very least you can acknowledge that your extra checklist is not guaranteed to improve safety. Even if you make it mandatory, if people don't follow a standard walk-around checklist, they won't follow a final chance checklist either.

It is a well studied phenomenon that an increase in rules will result in more rules being broken as well. If you want to compare different theories, you have to compare the actual realistic result of the theory, not the theoretical ideal.

In an ideal world, none of these accidents would have happened if people properly followed checklists and closed doors. Ergo, in an ideal world your extra checklist would not be necessary.

In a realistic world, people are not following checklists properly and make mistakes. Will an extra checklist help? You think it will, I think it will make things worse. That can be discussed, but it is not as obvious as you would like it to be. That does not mean that people who are opposed to extra checklists don't care about safety or airmanship. We are merely approaching the topic from different points of views.

Using your logic, I could claim that peole who are only focussing on one possible solution for a problem suffer from a serious case of tunnel vision and don't belong in an airplane or aviation. However, I won't make such a statement, as I acknowledge that such a view might be too simplistic and too narrow to make such a broad assertion.
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