Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

You just never know what the final check(which wasted 30 seconds of your life) might reveal for those who unfortunately already do poor walkarounds....

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22703

And there was no engine failure in this accident.
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digits_
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:49 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 am This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
Doesn't change the fact that his pax would be alive if he had somehow been able to follow my advice. I'm sure the pax would find the last two or three post very funny if they had the chance to read them, although their lives could never have been saved by them.
You don't think the bigger issue here is that a pilot and pax die because a baggage door blows open in flight in an aircraft that is certified to be able to fly with such an abnormality? Even if you lock the door and follow pelmet's final check, a failure like that can happen. Those latches don't last forever. On older planes it is not that uncommon they blow open at some point.

What would you do if that happens? Acknowledge that it happens, realize it is not that critical and in a controlled way return to the field, or consider it a time critical emergency and risk everything to get on the ground ASAP?
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digits_
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:52 am You just never know what the final check(which wasted 30 seconds of your life) might reveal for those who unfortunately already do poor walkarounds....

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22703

And there was no engine failure in this accident.
What makes you think you would notice it during a quick 30 seconds check, if a thorough walk around inspection didn't reveal it?
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
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-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:13 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:49 am
digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 am This pilot would have died if that baggage door blew open, even if he had locked it. He was incapable of dealing with a distraction properly. He also couldn't handle an intentional engine shut down properly. There is soo much more wrong with this flight than a simple "lock the door".
Doesn't change the fact that his pax would be alive if he had somehow been able to follow my advice. I'm sure the pax would find the last two or three post very funny if they had the chance to read them, although their lives could never have been saved by them.
You don't think the bigger issue here is that a pilot and pax die because a baggage door blows open in flight in an aircraft that is certified to be able to fly with such an abnormality? Even if you lock the door and follow pelmet's final check, a failure like that can happen. Those latches don't last forever. On older planes it is not that uncommon they blow open at some point.

What would you do if that happens? Acknowledge that it happens, realize it is not that critical and in a controlled way return to the field, or consider it a time critical emergency and risk everything to get on the ground ASAP?
Nice theory and that is the way it should be...but the sad reality is that a significant amount of pilots did the wrong thing and crashed....AND...they would not have crashed had they just done a simple 30 second final check of items I recommend(as tailored to a particular aircraft) as the door wouldn't have opened.

Yes, a failure could happen resulting in an open baggage door and it has happened but it is extremely rare. Improperly latched doors will open on a regular basis. Happened to the owner of a Mooney I fly...door damage only but something I check carefully again just prior to departing. Oddly, it has never happened to me on the Mooney.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 10:14 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:52 am You just never know what the final check(which wasted 30 seconds of your life) might reveal for those who unfortunately already do poor walkarounds....

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/22703

And there was no engine failure in this accident.
What makes you think you would notice it during a quick 30 seconds check, if a thorough walk around inspection didn't reveal it?
The likelihood that no detailed walkaround was done. Then again...no guarantees but the quick 30 second check will never make things worse.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Too bad this guy didn't check his oil cap just prior to getting into the aircraft to depart. After the walkaround he added fuel and oil and at some point departed. Regardless of pilot performance, a sequence of events happened that would not have happened if he just did a quick last minute check. Now he is dead. Probable would have found the car and toaster checklists on this thread hilarious if he(or the four skydivers on board who also died) had ever seen them....I bet the skydivers families might wish differently.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Repor ... l&IType=FA

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident to be: The pilot’s failure to maintain aircraft control while maneuvering to reverse direction. Factors included the airplane exceeding its maximum gross takeoff weight, the improper preflight by the pilot by not securing an oil cap, the low altitude, and an obstructed windshield.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/two-people-d ... -1.4620088

Maybe we should make checklists, so a driver doesn't drive the wrong way on the freeway, too. :roll:
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

I wonder whose posts in this thread could ever have the chance of saving lives. I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but I suppose just a reflection of character.

This poor guy was lucky to survive his mishandled event. Too bad he doesn't do a final check so that he would have removed his intake plugs. I bet he does now....

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 1512&key=1
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by North Shore »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 9:10 am I'm slightly bored, so will post this morning's checklist:

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Jam: APPLY
Morning Checklist #1, Rev 1

Reason for amendment: Insert 'Butter: APPLY'

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Butter: APPLY
Jam: APPLY
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digits_
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by digits_ »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am I wonder whose posts in this thread could ever have the chance of saving lives. I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but just a reflection of character.

This poor guy was lucky to survive his mishandled event. Too bad he doesn't do a final check so that he would have removed his intake plugs...

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 1512&key=1
Disagreement is fairly logical in an argument, but your "holier-than-thou-saviour-of-canadian-aviation-and-abroad" attitude is getting pretty tiresome.

At the very least you can acknowledge that your extra checklist is not guaranteed to improve safety. Even if you make it mandatory, if people don't follow a standard walk-around checklist, they won't follow a final chance checklist either.

It is a well studied phenomenon that an increase in rules will result in more rules being broken as well. If you want to compare different theories, you have to compare the actual realistic result of the theory, not the theoretical ideal.

In an ideal world, none of these accidents would have happened if people properly followed checklists and closed doors. Ergo, in an ideal world your extra checklist would not be necessary.

In a realistic world, people are not following checklists properly and make mistakes. Will an extra checklist help? You think it will, I think it will make things worse. That can be discussed, but it is not as obvious as you would like it to be. That does not mean that people who are opposed to extra checklists don't care about safety or airmanship. We are merely approaching the topic from different points of views.

Using your logic, I could claim that peole who are only focussing on one possible solution for a problem suffer from a serious case of tunnel vision and don't belong in an airplane or aviation. However, I won't make such a statement, as I acknowledge that such a view might be too simplistic and too narrow to make such a broad assertion.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

digits_ wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:24 am
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am I wonder whose posts in this thread could ever have the chance of saving lives. I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but just a reflection of character.

This poor guy was lucky to survive his mishandled event. Too bad he doesn't do a final check so that he would have removed his intake plugs...

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.avia ... 1512&key=1
Disagreement is fairly logical in an argument, but your "holier-than-thou-saviour-of-canadian-aviation-and-abroad" attitude is getting pretty tiresome.
Not as tiresome as statements of putting toast in the toaster, jam on bread, and concern about the garage. Sorry, but if you want to discuss about how my suggestion might affect checklist performance, that can be considered as reasonable discussion. If you insist on grade three behaviour...it is on a subject where a lot of deaths have been brought up....to be honest....pathetic. And then you say that I am getting tiresome. Sorry but...what a joke.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

Beware of who you take your advice from...
digits_ wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:17 am no tiedowns: worst that could happen? you won't move or rip one off. won't kill you

I know...it is getting obscure but strange things do happen in aviation. Who would have thought that an improper walkaround(or maybe the aircraft tied down after the walkaround), that you could nearly kill some kids by not just glancing to check your tiedowns just prior to getting into the aircraft. Maybe it was tied down after the walkaround...who knows.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/engl ... 643891.stm

"An investigation is under way after a concrete block fell from a plane onto a tennis court on Tyneside.
Members of the public spotted an object falling from a light aircraft on Wednesday morning.
The one-foot square slab landed at Northumberland Lawn Tennis Club in Jesmond. No-one was hurt but children were playing a short distance away.
It was later identified as a tie-down block used as one of a pair to secure light aircraft at Newcastle Airport.
In a statement, the Newcastle International Airport said: "Northumbria Police made contact with air traffic control on Wednesday concerning a concrete block which had been recovered from the Jesmond area that morning.
"The object was subsequently identified as a tie-down block which is used to secure light aircraft on the apron.
"It is thought to have originated form a Piper Cherokee Aircraft which departed from the airport at 0920 BST.
"The Civil Aviation Authority has been notified and a full investigation will take place."



Best to do a final check. By the way, every one of the jam spreading, cream pouring, coffee brewing crowd has wrongly interpreted, or perhaps intentionally written down erroneous replies. I have never said to make a checklist, yet they keep saying checklist, checklist(and we all know what a checklist looks like). I don't have one for this. It is a simple check...as in what things do I quickly look at strictly from memory that I feel are important, just like almost all of what we do for most of our actions when we fly. We do it from memory backed up for a very small portion of the flight with written checklists. What I am advocating has nothing to do with checklists.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but I suppose just a reflection of character.
Ahhhh..... Anyone who doesn't agree with Pelmets version of safety,

A) Doesn't Care,
B) Has poor character.

Funning when one is out of arguments that make any sense, what happens.

I'll admit -- North Shore -- I forgot the butter. Thanks for the assistance.

Here's a thought PELMET:

You can neither checklist every aspect of common sense, nor overall situational awareness. As mentioned, sometimes, someone might simply be too tired, too sick, too drunk, too high, or too distracted to fly.

And another CHECKLIST isn't likely to be the best solution.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:07 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:13 am I guess some just don't care. Its obvious actually but I suppose just a reflection of character.
Ahhhh..... Anyone who doesn't agree with Pelmets version of safety,

A) Doesn't Care,
B) Has poor character.

I'll admit -- North Shore -- I forgot the butter. Thanks for the assistance.
It is not the disagreement actually. It is the childish, grade three commentary. Don't worry, I expected it from you even though I have brought up a whole lot of deaths on here. But that seems to be where we are and obviously it won't change. All of which actually brings something to light for me about you....

Based on what I have seen here today...I suspect that all your ranting and raving on other threads(such as St. Catherines) was just fake pretend-to-care about those other people with probably other motives in mind(lawsuits for financial gain perhaps?).
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:17 pm
Based on what I have seen here today...I suspect that all your ranting and raving on other threads(such as St. Catherines) was just pretend-to-care about those people with probably other motives in mind(lawsuits for financial gain?).
Now you're ridiculous. Keep going, its amusing.

You've been owned in this whole thread, dude. Keep going, popcorn is hot.
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pelmet
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:18 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:17 pm
Based on what I have seen here today...I suspect that all your ranting and raving on other threads(such as St. Catherines) was just pretend-to-care about those people with probably other motives in mind(lawsuits for financial gain?).
Keep going, its amusing.

You've been owned in this whole thread, dude. Keep going, popcorn is hot.
Ok, another example of me being "owned"....

https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/09 ... l-for-two/

Failure to secure fuel cap fatal for two
September 12, 2019 by General Aviation News Staff 9 Comments
After refueling the Beech C35, the pilot and the pilot-rated passenger took off to return to the pilot’s home airport.
During the initial climb, the airplane accelerated to about 67 knots and reached an altitude of about 170′ above ground level before it began to slow and lose altitude, consistent with a loss of engine power.
Although more than 2,300′ of relatively level grassy terrain suitable for an emergency landing remained ahead of the airplane, the pilot made a left turn back toward the departure end of the runway at the airport in Camden, Arkansas.
During the turn, the airplane entered a steep left spiral, hit the ground, and caught fire. Both people on board the plane died in the crash.
The airplane’s left main fuel tank cap was found on the left side of the runway about 1,000′ from the threshold and 4,500′ from the main wreckage. The cap’s locking lever was engaged, and it showed no fire or impact damage.
The fuel selector valve was found positioned to the right main fuel tank feed position.
Flight control continuity was confirmed, and no other preimpact anomalies were found.
According to the pilot operating handbook for the airplane, the fuel selector should be on the left main fuel tank for takeoff. It is likely that the left main fuel tank cap was not secured after the airplane was refueled and fell off the airplane’s left wing onto the runway during the takeoff. Without the cap in place, fuel escaped from the left main fuel tank and subsequently starved the engine of fuel during the climb, resulting in the power loss.
The pilot likely switched the fuel selector to the right main fuel tank in an attempt to restart the engine. When he tried to turn back to the airport, he failed to maintain a safe airspeed, and the airplane exceeded its critical angle of attack and entered an aerodynamic stall.
Probable cause: The pilot’s improper decision to return to the runway instead of landing straight ahead when the engine lost power and his failure to maintain adequate airspeed while maneuvering for an emergency landing, which resulted in an exceedance of the airplane’s critical angle of attack and an aerodynamic stall. Contributing to the accident was the pilot’s failure to properly secure the left main fuel tank cap after refueling, which resulted in a loss of engine power due to fuel starvation during the takeoff climb.
NTSB Identification: CEN17FA364
This September 2017 accident report is provided by the National Transportation Safety Board. Published as an educational tool, it is intended to help pilots learn from the misfortunes of others.


Thank god we have people like you for advice Rookie. Otherwise we would never get our bread buttered(and yes, I did see how you tried to be funny by adding the buttering of bread to your hilarious checklist before you deleted it as seen at 11:17 in this post below).....

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=136967&start=50#p1103077

Child.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by rookiepilot »

Oh, Fatal accidents are never funny. No one is saying that.

Your analysis sure is, though.

Oh; and last I looked, this was the subject of this thread:


"An aircraft towbar was left on a runway by a pilot who had experienced a "close shave" driving to the airport, an investigators' report said.
The Cessna towbar fell onto the runway departing from London Southend Airport on 7 August.
Its pilot said he had been distracted during his pre-flight checks by an earlier near-miss between his motorcycle and a cyclist.
A plane that landed later ran over the towbar, but no damage was caused.


You've changed it to some expose' on fatal accidents, after you've been shown up.

Anything else?
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by laminar »

Tow bars have always been a fear of mine with regards to this type of incident. My personal rule is a tow bar doesn't leave my hands. I pull it from a rack, move the plane, and take it back to the rack before my next task.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:40 pm Oh, Fatal accidents are never funny.

Your analysis sure is, though.

Anything else?
Only a bit of curiosity about your accident. What happened and what can we learn from it?

This is a perfect forum for a detailed analysis. I could start a new thread if you prefer.
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 12:40 pm Oh, Fatal accidents are never funny. No one is saying that.

Your analysis sure is, though.

Oh; and last I looked, this was the subject of this thread:


"An aircraft towbar was left on a runway by a pilot who had experienced a "close shave" driving to the airport, an investigators' report said.
The Cessna towbar fell onto the runway departing from London Southend Airport on 7 August.
Its pilot said he had been distracted during his pre-flight checks by an earlier near-miss between his motorcycle and a cyclist.
A plane that landed later ran over the towbar, but no damage was caused.


You've changed it to some expose' on fatal accidents, after you've been shown up.
The only thing I have been shown is the complete incompetence of many posters, including you. I give multiple examples of fatal accidents that would have been prevented by a couple of simple procedures(each lasting only a few seconds) and several of you latch onto calling it more checklists and simply making extremely juvenile responses. It is a true explanation of why accidents continue to happen...the thought process of so many.
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Last edited by pelmet on Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pilot leaves towbar on runway??

Post by 7ECA »

North Shore wrote: Wed Jan 29, 2020 11:22 am Morning Checklist #1, Rev 1

Reason for amendment: Insert 'Butter: APPLY'

Coffee start Button: DEPRESS
Toaster ENGAGE
Coffee: POUR
Cream: AS DESIRED
Toast: REMOVE
Butter: APPLY
Jam: APPLY
You'll need an additional revision, you've forgotten the 3-Ss. Important part of any morning routine.

Oh dear, and you've forgotten anything about getting dressed and making sure your epaulettes are shiny, and you've neglected the wearing of an appropriately large watch... :lol:
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