https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Doc ... Update.pdf
Looking more and more like disorientation in imc.
Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Just another tragic set of circumstances.ozone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 07, 2020 4:05 pm https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Doc ... Update.pdf
Looking more and more like disorientation in imc.
Luckily that guy on the trail didn't get hit. It says he was 50ft away. Crazy.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
50 feet above, but about 150 feet away.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
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I_Heart_Seaplanes
- Rank 3
- Posts: 130
- Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2011 5:37 pm
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Is it common for the TSB to join NTSB investigations?
If you're gonna to be dumb, you gotta be tough
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Engines were made by Pratt and Whitney - so yes it is.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Yes, and we have around 80 S-76's operating up here.
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience often comes from bad judgment.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Looks like Kobe's wife is suing the pilot directly now on top of the company. Something to keep in mind when you're pushing the weather or whatever. Even if you don't live they're coming after your family.
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YYZSaabGuy
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:32 am
- Location: On glideslope.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
NTSB probable cause hearing, to nobody's surprise, blames pilot eror: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/308 ... ted-clouds
LOS ANGELES -- U.S. safety investigators said Tuesday that the pilot of Kobe Bryant's helicopter flew through the clouds last year in an apparent violation of federal standards, likely becoming disoriented just before the helicopter crashed and killed Bryant and eight others.
Robert Sumwalt, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said that pilot Ara Zobayan was flying under visual flight rules, which meant that he needed to be able to see where he was going.
Zobayan piloted the aircraft to climb sharply and had nearly broken through the clouds when the Sikorsky S-76 helicopter banked abruptly and plunged into the Southern California hills below, killing all aboard.
The helicopter did not have so-called "black box" recording devices, which were not required.
The revelation during a hearing to announce the probable cause or causes of the crash followed plenty of finger-pointing.
Bryant's widow, Vanessa, blamed the pilot. She and relatives of the other victims also faulted the companies that owned and operated the helicopter.
The brother of the pilot didn't blame Bryant but said he knew about the risks of flying. The helicopter companies said foggy weather before the helicopter hit the ground was an act of God and blamed air traffic controllers.
The federal hearing focused on the long-awaited probable cause or causes of the tragedy that unleashed worldwide grief for the retired basketball star, launched several lawsuits and prompted state and federal legislation.
Bryant, his 13-year-old daughter, Gianna, and six other passengers were flying from Orange County to a youth basketball tournament at his Mamba Sports Academy in Ventura County on Jan. 26, 2020, when the helicopter encountered thick fog in the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles.
Pilot Ara Zobayan climbed sharply and nearly broke through the clouds when the Sikorsky S-76 helicopter banked abruptly and plunged into the Calabasas hills below, killing all nine aboard instantly before flames engulfed the wreckage.
There was no sign of mechanical failure, and the crash was believed to be an accident, the National Transportation Safety Board has said previously.
The board is likely to make nonbinding recommendations to prevent future crashes. The NTSB is an independent federal agency that investigates transportation-related crashes but has no enforcement powers.
It submits suggestions to agencies such as the Federal Aviation Administration or the Coast Guard, which have repeatedly rejected some board safety recommendations after other disasters.
One possible recommendation following the investigation into the crash that killed Bryant could be for helicopters to have terrain awareness and warning systems, devices that signal when aircraft are in danger of crashing.
The helicopter Bryant was flying in did not have the system, which the NTSB has recommended as mandatory for helicopters. The FAA requires it only for air ambulances.
Federal lawmakers have sponsored the Kobe Bryant and Gianna Bryant Helicopter Safety Act to mandate the devices on all helicopters carrying six or more passengers.
Former NTSB chairman James Hall said he hopes the FAA will require the systems as a result of the crash.
"Historically, it has required high-profile tragedies to move the regulatory needle forward," he said.
The devices, known as TAWS, cost upward of $35,000 per helicopter and require training and maintenance.
Helicopter Association International, which represents the helicopter industry, discouraged what it called a "one solution fits all" method.
President and CEO James Viola said in a statement that mandating specific equipment for the entire industry would be "ineffective" and "potentially hazardous."
Even though Zobayan was flying at low altitude in a hilly area, the warning system may not have prevented the crash, Coleman said.
The rugged terrain could have triggered the alarm "constantly going off" and distracted the pilot or prompted him to lower the alarm's volume or ignore it, the Embry-Riddle safety science professor said.
Federal investigators said Zobayan, an experienced pilot who often flew Bryant, may have "misperceived" the angles at which he was descending and banking, which can occur when pilots become disoriented in low visibility, according to NTSB documents.
The others killed in the crash were Orange Coast College baseball coach John Altobelli, his wife, Keri, and their daughter Alyssa; Christina Mauser, who helped Bryant coach his daughter's basketball team; and Sarah Chester and her daughter Payton. Alyssa and Payton were Gianna's teammates.
The crash has generated lawsuits and countersuits.
On the day that a massive memorial service was held at the Staples Center, where Bryant played most of his career, Vanessa Bryant sued Zobayan and the companies that owned and operated the helicopter for alleged negligence and the wrongful deaths of her husband and daughter. Families of other victims sued the helicopter companies but not the pilot.
Vanessa Bryant said Island Express Helicopters Inc., which operated the aircraft, and its owner, Island Express Holding Corp., did not properly train or supervise Zobayan. She said the pilot was careless and negligent to fly in fog and should have aborted the flight.
Zobayan's brother, Berge Zobayan, has said Kobe Bryant knew the risks of flying in a helicopter and that his survivors aren't entitled to damages from the pilot's estate. Island Express Helicopters Inc. denied responsibility and said the crash was "an act of God" that it could not control.
The company also countersued two FAA air traffic controllers, saying the crash was caused by their "series of erroneous acts and/or omissions."
The countersuit claims one controller improperly denied Zobayan's request for "flight following," or radar assistance, as he proceeded in the fog. Officials have said the controller terminated service because radar could not be maintained at the altitude the aircraft was flying.
According to the lawsuit, the controller said he was going to lose radar and communications shortly, but radar contact was not lost.
When a second controller took over, the lawsuit said, the first controller failed to brief him about the helicopter, and because the radar services were not terminated correctly, the pilot believed he was being tracked.
Vanessa Bryant also sued the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, accusing deputies of sharing unauthorized photos of the crash site. California now has a state law prohibiting such conduct."
LOS ANGELES -- U.S. safety investigators said Tuesday that the pilot of Kobe Bryant's helicopter flew through the clouds last year in an apparent violation of federal standards, likely becoming disoriented just before the helicopter crashed and killed Bryant and eight others.
Robert Sumwalt, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, said that pilot Ara Zobayan was flying under visual flight rules, which meant that he needed to be able to see where he was going.
Zobayan piloted the aircraft to climb sharply and had nearly broken through the clouds when the Sikorsky S-76 helicopter banked abruptly and plunged into the Southern California hills below, killing all aboard.
The helicopter did not have so-called "black box" recording devices, which were not required.
The revelation during a hearing to announce the probable cause or causes of the crash followed plenty of finger-pointing.
Bryant's widow, Vanessa, blamed the pilot. She and relatives of the other victims also faulted the companies that owned and operated the helicopter.
The brother of the pilot didn't blame Bryant but said he knew about the risks of flying. The helicopter companies said foggy weather before the helicopter hit the ground was an act of God and blamed air traffic controllers.
The federal hearing focused on the long-awaited probable cause or causes of the tragedy that unleashed worldwide grief for the retired basketball star, launched several lawsuits and prompted state and federal legislation.
Bryant, his 13-year-old daughter, Gianna, and six other passengers were flying from Orange County to a youth basketball tournament at his Mamba Sports Academy in Ventura County on Jan. 26, 2020, when the helicopter encountered thick fog in the San Fernando Valley north of Los Angeles.
Pilot Ara Zobayan climbed sharply and nearly broke through the clouds when the Sikorsky S-76 helicopter banked abruptly and plunged into the Calabasas hills below, killing all nine aboard instantly before flames engulfed the wreckage.
There was no sign of mechanical failure, and the crash was believed to be an accident, the National Transportation Safety Board has said previously.
The board is likely to make nonbinding recommendations to prevent future crashes. The NTSB is an independent federal agency that investigates transportation-related crashes but has no enforcement powers.
It submits suggestions to agencies such as the Federal Aviation Administration or the Coast Guard, which have repeatedly rejected some board safety recommendations after other disasters.
One possible recommendation following the investigation into the crash that killed Bryant could be for helicopters to have terrain awareness and warning systems, devices that signal when aircraft are in danger of crashing.
The helicopter Bryant was flying in did not have the system, which the NTSB has recommended as mandatory for helicopters. The FAA requires it only for air ambulances.
Federal lawmakers have sponsored the Kobe Bryant and Gianna Bryant Helicopter Safety Act to mandate the devices on all helicopters carrying six or more passengers.
Former NTSB chairman James Hall said he hopes the FAA will require the systems as a result of the crash.
"Historically, it has required high-profile tragedies to move the regulatory needle forward," he said.
The devices, known as TAWS, cost upward of $35,000 per helicopter and require training and maintenance.
Helicopter Association International, which represents the helicopter industry, discouraged what it called a "one solution fits all" method.
President and CEO James Viola said in a statement that mandating specific equipment for the entire industry would be "ineffective" and "potentially hazardous."
Even though Zobayan was flying at low altitude in a hilly area, the warning system may not have prevented the crash, Coleman said.
The rugged terrain could have triggered the alarm "constantly going off" and distracted the pilot or prompted him to lower the alarm's volume or ignore it, the Embry-Riddle safety science professor said.
Federal investigators said Zobayan, an experienced pilot who often flew Bryant, may have "misperceived" the angles at which he was descending and banking, which can occur when pilots become disoriented in low visibility, according to NTSB documents.
The others killed in the crash were Orange Coast College baseball coach John Altobelli, his wife, Keri, and their daughter Alyssa; Christina Mauser, who helped Bryant coach his daughter's basketball team; and Sarah Chester and her daughter Payton. Alyssa and Payton were Gianna's teammates.
The crash has generated lawsuits and countersuits.
On the day that a massive memorial service was held at the Staples Center, where Bryant played most of his career, Vanessa Bryant sued Zobayan and the companies that owned and operated the helicopter for alleged negligence and the wrongful deaths of her husband and daughter. Families of other victims sued the helicopter companies but not the pilot.
Vanessa Bryant said Island Express Helicopters Inc., which operated the aircraft, and its owner, Island Express Holding Corp., did not properly train or supervise Zobayan. She said the pilot was careless and negligent to fly in fog and should have aborted the flight.
Zobayan's brother, Berge Zobayan, has said Kobe Bryant knew the risks of flying in a helicopter and that his survivors aren't entitled to damages from the pilot's estate. Island Express Helicopters Inc. denied responsibility and said the crash was "an act of God" that it could not control.
The company also countersued two FAA air traffic controllers, saying the crash was caused by their "series of erroneous acts and/or omissions."
The countersuit claims one controller improperly denied Zobayan's request for "flight following," or radar assistance, as he proceeded in the fog. Officials have said the controller terminated service because radar could not be maintained at the altitude the aircraft was flying.
According to the lawsuit, the controller said he was going to lose radar and communications shortly, but radar contact was not lost.
When a second controller took over, the lawsuit said, the first controller failed to brief him about the helicopter, and because the radar services were not terminated correctly, the pilot believed he was being tracked.
Vanessa Bryant also sued the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, accusing deputies of sharing unauthorized photos of the crash site. California now has a state law prohibiting such conduct."
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Schooner69A
- Rank 7
- Posts: 639
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
- Location: The Okanagan
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
In the helicopter world, when you go down, you slow down.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
I agree Schooner!
I’d have to go back and look at the facts but I would think if your flying a multimillionaire around you would want to do so in the safest way possible (go IFR, decline the flight and let him get driven?). If you have to get a clearance and go up and get him to an airport IFR then do so. If Bryant gets pissed that he has to get a limo from the airport to the venue then that’s his problem. If your job is on the line then that’s not a job worth having.
Sadly I can’t imagine what kind of pressure he may or may not have been under but US helicopter statistics speak for themselves.
I’d have to go back and look at the facts but I would think if your flying a multimillionaire around you would want to do so in the safest way possible (go IFR, decline the flight and let him get driven?). If you have to get a clearance and go up and get him to an airport IFR then do so. If Bryant gets pissed that he has to get a limo from the airport to the venue then that’s his problem. If your job is on the line then that’s not a job worth having.
Sadly I can’t imagine what kind of pressure he may or may not have been under but US helicopter statistics speak for themselves.
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Schooner69A
- Rank 7
- Posts: 639
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm
- Location: The Okanagan
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
There is no such thing as ‘unintended’ or ‘inadvertent’ IFR; most people who encountered it knew for minutes or miles that such a thing was possible. It should really be called “Advertent IFR”
If you ‘go down’, you ‘slow down’.
However, if you’re arsin’ around low level (say, 500 - 1000 feet) in poor viz at cruise speed, upon entering IMC conditions you:
1. Go on the dials.
2. Note your heading.
3. Note the reciprocal.
4. Make a level, 180 degree turn toward the low ground.
5. Fly back into better conditions.
If you’re in hilly or mountainous country, then you pick a heading that will keep you clear of terrain until you’re at a safe altitude. Synthetic vision (as I have in my aircraft) is very handy for that.
However, if you’re hell bent on getting through, then as the ceiling and viz decrease, so do you: in both altitude and airspeed.
NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE GROUND.
Your aim is to give yourself reaction time, so you gradually lose altitude and airspeed; it may turn out that you wind up at ground level in the hover.
Of course, you should have beat a hasty retreat long before this, but at least you’re in one piece and can make a decision to land or turn around to see what’s behind you.
The take-away is that unless you’re reasonably proficient on instruments, at the moment you start slowing down and losing altitude to maintain ground contact, you ‘get out of Dodge’ while the getting’s good. (And that goes for fixed-wing pilots also.)
If you do not have an “Inadvertent IFR” procedure, you should develop one…
Been there; done that...
If you ‘go down’, you ‘slow down’.
However, if you’re arsin’ around low level (say, 500 - 1000 feet) in poor viz at cruise speed, upon entering IMC conditions you:
1. Go on the dials.
2. Note your heading.
3. Note the reciprocal.
4. Make a level, 180 degree turn toward the low ground.
5. Fly back into better conditions.
If you’re in hilly or mountainous country, then you pick a heading that will keep you clear of terrain until you’re at a safe altitude. Synthetic vision (as I have in my aircraft) is very handy for that.
However, if you’re hell bent on getting through, then as the ceiling and viz decrease, so do you: in both altitude and airspeed.
NEVER LOSE SIGHT OF THE GROUND.
Your aim is to give yourself reaction time, so you gradually lose altitude and airspeed; it may turn out that you wind up at ground level in the hover.
Of course, you should have beat a hasty retreat long before this, but at least you’re in one piece and can make a decision to land or turn around to see what’s behind you.
The take-away is that unless you’re reasonably proficient on instruments, at the moment you start slowing down and losing altitude to maintain ground contact, you ‘get out of Dodge’ while the getting’s good. (And that goes for fixed-wing pilots also.)
If you do not have an “Inadvertent IFR” procedure, you should develop one…
Been there; done that...
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Kobe was cheap, the company he used didn't even have ifr certs, the helicopter was not ifr configured and the pilot had no need to be ifr rated.MOAB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:48 am I agree Schooner!
I’d have to go back and look at the facts but I would think if your flying a multimillionaire around you would want to do so in the safest way possible (go IFR, decline the flight and let him get driven?). If you have to get a clearance and go up and get him to an airport IFR then do so. If Bryant gets pissed that he has to get a limo from the airport to the venue then that’s his problem. If your job is on the line then that’s not a job worth having.
Sadly I can’t imagine what kind of pressure he may or may not have been under but US helicopter statistics speak for themselves.
However, Kobe had a good relationship and trusted their service. It's possible that everyone became complacent and thought their status made them invincible to such human errors.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Well said Heliian! I couldn't remember what the company had for gear, let alone what they could do with it.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
They were going to Camarillo Airport which has IFR approaches. Moot point as Island Express Helicopters did not have IFR authorization. I assume Kobe and his group would then drive 15 minutes to the Mamba Sports Academy.MOAB wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:48 am I agree Schooner!
I’d have to go back and look at the facts but I would think if your flying a multimillionaire around you would want to do so in the safest way possible (go IFR, decline the flight and let him get driven?). If you have to get a clearance and go up and get him to an airport IFR then do so. If Bryant gets pissed that he has to get a limo from the airport to the venue then that’s his problem. If your job is on the line then that’s not a job worth having.
Sadly I can’t imagine what kind of pressure he may or may not have been under but US helicopter statistics speak for themselves.
While I find it perplexing why he was doing 140 kts in low ceilings and visibility, I think the pilot was going fast because of the delays getting through Burbank class C airspace. He could have slowed down and even set down at the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Malibu/Lost hills heliport within 2 miles of the crash location.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Doc ... Update.pdf
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Anyone important die in the other 184 crashes in the last ten years ?
Twenty of which were they say in helicopters .
Anyone we might know ?
Twenty of which were they say in helicopters .
Anyone we might know ?
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
"the helicopter was not ifr configured and the pilot had no need to be ifr rated."
N72EX was IFR configured with a SPZ 7000 DAFC including 4 axis auto pilot and the pilot was Instrument rated and had taken previous IIMC training, but yes, the Island Express OC was VFR only.
"They were going to Camarillo Airport"
The planned destination was the sports academy. When the pilot encountered rising terrain, a lowering ceiling and visibility he initiated a climb into IMC. It's presumed his only hope at seeing the ground again would have been to "confess", request an IFR clearance to Camarillo and sort it all out on the ground later.
The unanswerable question to this tragedy is why he initiated the climb without engaging the auto pilot first, lost SA in cloud and flew the machine into the ground.
N72EX was IFR configured with a SPZ 7000 DAFC including 4 axis auto pilot and the pilot was Instrument rated and had taken previous IIMC training, but yes, the Island Express OC was VFR only.
"They were going to Camarillo Airport"
The planned destination was the sports academy. When the pilot encountered rising terrain, a lowering ceiling and visibility he initiated a climb into IMC. It's presumed his only hope at seeing the ground again would have been to "confess", request an IFR clearance to Camarillo and sort it all out on the ground later.
The unanswerable question to this tragedy is why he initiated the climb without engaging the auto pilot first, lost SA in cloud and flew the machine into the ground.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
He could have literally set it down anywhere with a big enough opening.
Unfortunately the pilot didn't have the luxury of doing any vft bush work to hone those skills. Probably never flew in snow either.
At the end of the day, he fell into one of the many deadly ttraps of flying, like so many before him. Learn from other peoples mistakes.
Re: Kobe Bryant chopper crash
Two corrections to my previous post.
The intended destination was Camarillo where there was ground transportation waiting to take them to the sports academy.
Instead of "lost SA" ( situational awareness) the pilot was affected by spatial disorientation.
NTSB Final Report:
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR2101.pdf
The intended destination was Camarillo where there was ground transportation waiting to take them to the sports academy.
Instead of "lost SA" ( situational awareness) the pilot was affected by spatial disorientation.
NTSB Final Report:
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Acc ... AR2101.pdf
