It might be best to get a top up enroute

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pelmet
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:10 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:29 pm
It had to clear eventually. Or if it didn't, maybe common sense would have kicked in and he would have finally asked for an approach with an ILS.
On what basis, after a flight with multiple failed approaches and a passive attitude, do you attest "common sense would have kicked in".

I'm trying to understand, after hours in the air, where this sudden burst of situation awareness, decision making ability, and a plan, would come from, after not having been there, prior.
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:48 pm Where do you draw the line between legal fuel and stopping every suitable airport?
I can't answer silly unanswerable questions.

But what I can say is that the NZ CAA backs me up....

"To minimise the chances of unexpectedly running out of fuel:
» Always plan for en-route refuelling stops, and use them to ensure safe margins of fuel are maintained at all times."

https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/pub ... gement.pdf

Decide for yourself folks. Take my advice or take the advice of a super dooper test pilot who never makes mistakes and can no doubt handle any undesired situation if you are at his level or the advice of a rookie pilot whose level you should hope you are not on. Not many pilots have ever had a fuel exhaustion accident because they made an enroute stop for fuel on a long cross country flight to a marginal weather end destination. Those that didn't refuel......I'm sure most likely turned out OK as well...but not all.
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Last edited by pelmet on Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by AuxBatOn »

pelmet wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:04 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:10 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:29 pm
It had to clear eventually. Or if it didn't, maybe common sense would have kicked in and he would have finally asked for an approach with an ILS.
On what basis, after a flight with multiple failed approaches and a passive attitude, do you attest "common sense would have kicked in".

I'm trying to understand, after hours in the air, where this sudden burst of situation awareness, decision making ability, and a plan, would come from, after not having been there, prior.
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:48 pm Where do you draw the line between legal fuel and stopping every suitable airport?
I can't answer silly unanswerable questions.

But what I can say is that the NZ CAA backs me up....

"To minimise the chances of unexpectedly running out of fuel:
» Always plan for en-route refuelling stops, and use them to ensure safe margins of fuel are maintained at all times."

https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/pub ... gement.pdf

Decide for yourself folks. Take my advice or take the advice of a super dooper test pilot who never makes mistakes if you are at his level or a rookie pilot. Not many pilots have ever had a fuel exhaustion accident because they made an enroute stop for fuel on a long cross country flight to a marginal end destination. Those that didn't......most likely turned out OK as well.
Pelmet, your advise is incomplete without some sort of threshold. At what fuel levels is it acceptable to plan to? Of course I’ll plan a fuel stop before I run out of gas but how much gas do I need in my tanks? The legal limit? More than the legal limit? If so, by what margin? Saying “plan enroute fuel stops” is like saying “plan fuel stops when driving long distances”. It is meaningless without having more accurate guidance.
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pelmet
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by pelmet »

AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:36 pm
pelmet wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 8:04 pm
rookiepilot wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:10 pm

On what basis, after a flight with multiple failed approaches and a passive attitude, do you attest "common sense would have kicked in".

I'm trying to understand, after hours in the air, where this sudden burst of situation awareness, decision making ability, and a plan, would come from, after not having been there, prior.
AuxBatOn wrote: Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:48 pm Where do you draw the line between legal fuel and stopping every suitable airport?
I can't answer silly unanswerable questions.

But what I can say is that the NZ CAA backs me up....

"To minimise the chances of unexpectedly running out of fuel:
» Always plan for en-route refuelling stops, and use them to ensure safe margins of fuel are maintained at all times."

https://www.aviation.govt.nz/assets/pub ... gement.pdf

Decide for yourself folks. Take my advice or take the advice of a super dooper test pilot who never makes mistakes if you are at his level or a rookie pilot. Not many pilots have ever had a fuel exhaustion accident because they made an enroute stop for fuel on a long cross country flight to a marginal end destination. Those that didn't......most likely turned out OK as well.
Pelmet, your advise is incomplete without some sort of threshold. At what fuel levels is it acceptable to plan to? Of course I’ll plan a fuel stop before I run out of gas but how much gas do I need in my tanks? The legal limit? More than the legal limit? If so, by what margin? Saying “plan enroute fuel stops” is like saying “plan fuel stops when driving long distances”. It is meaningless without having more accurate guidance.
I suggest you contact the NZ CAA with these questions. While unlikely, perhaps they will answer you. No doubt they intentionally kept their statement fairly simple to avoid overcomplicating things as there are too many variables...so have I. I have nothing else to add for now.

Consider the fuel stop on the long cross-country to a marginal weather destination. Eventually, you will be glad you did. It is always strange how some like to over-complicate simple safety ideas.
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Last edited by pelmet on Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:48 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by karmutzen »

He had lots of fuel, planning was sufficient, he got caught out because he was unprepared for a dynamic situation. He could have flown the ILS at the airport he messed up the 2 RNAV approaches, could have flown a PAR into Dover if he had said the magic words. When your world depends on payload, you plan minimum fuel, and all the training and experience lets you do it safely. This guy was a 600 hr private pilot, behind the aircraft.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by valleyboy »

I know this thread is based on a safety video and from where I sit there is a lot of missing information. His aircraft had an autopilot but we have no information on it's serviceability or if it could be cpld to the GPS or the ILS. I would suspect ILS for sure but I have a suspicion that the autopilot was not functioning well and this low time pilot became a victim of automation even if it was in such a primitive state. It was obvious that he lacked the confidence and ability to hand fly an accurate approach. All this adding to the stress, tunnel vision and missed opportunities. We will never know for sure but ability to hand fly accurately was never questioned or addressed in the video because of it's obvious goal was education and not investigation.

Relying on automation before developing stick and rudder skills is likely the biggest issue in present time safety issues. Ars of the pants instincts are being filtered out and the march to full automation will eventually put pilots in flight decks mostly as observers is coming. We are in transition now and it is slowly eroding our skills. When I see CV's with new commercial pilots with reference to garmin 1000 experience in their quest for the IFR rating all it tells me that hands and feet are taking a back seat and it's concerning. Yup an "old guy" opinion, I like technology and gadgets but I see the addiction problems to technology that isn't completely developed yet. Just like EV's :smt040
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by iflyforpie »

I don’t agree with you at all, Pelmet.

Extra fuel would have simply extended this guy’s complacency and indecisiveness. The only way his life would have been extended by years rather than hours is if an airport became VMC.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by pelmet »

iflyforpie wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:00 am I don’t agree with you at all, Pelmet.

Extra fuel would have simply extended this guy’s complacency and indecisiveness. The only way his life would have been extended by years rather than hours is if an airport became VMC.
That is because you haven't understood my posts. Just because in your opinion, it would not have helped this particular guy(and maybe it would not have helped), does not mean that it would not have helped someone else and therefore is a good idea overall. That is why even a government agency equivalent to Transport Canada, known as the New Zealand CAA recommends the same. Perhaps there is a reason why. Anybody care to guess.

By the way, the airport may have become VMC as the forecast was to improve greatly at the time of the accident. Wouldn't surprise me if an hour later, it was VMC as forecast.

Very odd how so many can't get their focus past one particular incident to ask themselves if it is a good idea overall....at least sometimes(which is why I titled the thread...'might be best to top up' as opposed to 'always is best to top up'.
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jschnurr
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by jschnurr »

This guy was 3:20 into his flight when things started going wrong. He already had 1.5 hrs of fuel past his destination on board. Stopping enroute for more fuel when there was no problem or need probably never crossed his mind, nor would it mine.

There were many options with the fuel he had on board. He ran out of fuel not due to lack of fuel, but because he lost situational awareness and couldn't process a dynamic weather situation or fly IFR approaches with a high degree of competence.

Reminds me of the anecdote about the kid who failed his class (back when kids could do that). The mom persuades the teacher to give him another chance, because, after all, her kid cannot be a failure. The kid gets another chance, and he fails again. He gets another chance, and another failure. This time the teacher failed him, because she realized that, at a certain point, no amount of extra attempts will produce a different outcome.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by 7ECA »

Seems this is a human factors related accident more than anything; although poor flying skills on the buggered up approaches certainly didn't help.

Time in the tanks gives you options, if things do not go as planned. But, if you can't think straight or process information being provided to you, the extra time is not going to magically change the outcome.

The lesson that could be learned, is that launching into conditions that are beyond ones ability to handle is a bad idea. Unfortunately, too many people only learn this once they're already in the air - kind of a shitty time to start learning...
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by rookiepilot »

pelmet wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:15 am That is because you haven't understood my posts.
Correct.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by Donald »

This thread is as dumb as the Teterboro Lear thread.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by jakeandelwood »

Instead of that controller saying "unless it's an emergency there is no way you can land at Dover" she could have said "it seems like you are having trouble sir, I can give you priority vectors into Dover if you declare an emergency" that may have coaxed him into swallowing his pride and declaring the emergency 10 minutes before he ran the tanks dry. I know, I know he is the PIC and has the final say.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by digits_ »

jakeandelwood wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:52 am Instead of that controller saying "unless it's an emergency there is no way you can land at Dover" she could have said "it seems like you are having trouble sir, I can give you priority vectors into Dover if you declare an emergency" that may have coaxed him into swallowing his pride and declaring the emergency 10 minutes before he ran the tanks dry. I know, I know he is the PIC and has the final say.
Do controllers see a history of approaches you have attempted during a flight or your full flight track? If not, how could she have known he was in trouble?

The reaction to him running out of fuel sounded a bit funny though. You could hear the eye roll in her voice.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by photofly »

Could any ATCO confirm (or deny) they get special training on how to sound cool and calm and not lose their shit when the pilot on the other end of the radio sounds like they know they’re about to die a horrible death?
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by jakeandelwood »

digits_ wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:37 am
jakeandelwood wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:52 am Instead of that controller saying "unless it's an emergency there is no way you can land at Dover" she could have said "it seems like you are having trouble sir, I can give you priority vectors into Dover if you declare an emergency" that may have coaxed him into swallowing his pride and declaring the emergency 10 minutes before he ran the tanks dry. I know, I know he is the PIC and has the final say.
Do controllers see a history of approaches you have attempted during a flight or your full flight track? If not, how could she have known he was in trouble?

The reaction to him running out of fuel sounded a bit funny though. You could hear the eye roll in her voice.
That's what I thought, I was wondering if the controller had the flight history in front of them or that she had no idea of his missed approaches and time in the air, but she knew the weather was near minimums. I know it's not the controllers responsibility but couldn't she sense the increasing panic in the pilots voice?
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by GoinVertical »

Does anyone else feel that the relationship between pilots and ATC is a bit different in the USA?

Seems like I've heard/seen/read about lots of cases where pilots are "scared" of or intimidated by ATC.

I also feel like every time I've flown into US Airspace that center conveys a bit of a different attitude as compared to here... obviously not always, but a lot of the time.

Anyone with a lot of US experience have any input?
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by rookiepilot »

jschnurr wrote: Thu Mar 05, 2020 10:52 am
There were many options with the fuel he had on board. He ran out of fuel not due to lack of fuel, but because he lost situational awareness and couldn't process a dynamic weather situation or fly IFR approaches with a high degree of competence.
Excellent summary.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by digits_ »

GoinVertical wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:58 pm Does anyone else feel that the relationship between pilots and ATC is a bit different in the USA?

Seems like I've heard/seen/read about lots of cases where pilots are "scared" of or intimidated by ATC.

I also feel like every time I've flown into US Airspace that center conveys a bit of a different attitude as compared to here... obviously not always, but a lot of the time.

Anyone with a lot of US experience have any input?
I've noticed some subtile differences as well. For the majority of the flights, there is no real difference, but I do have the impression that -in general- Canadian ATC always tries to keep the peace on the frequency. A badly placed remark, an inappropriate witty remark from a pilot etc gets ignored or defused by Canadian ATC. In the US, mainly the busier centers, they would start or engage those witty/sour disccussions. It usually starts off for a reason (mistake by the pilot), but I do experience it as a bit more confrontational.

To put some very rough estimated numbers on it, I hear Canadian ATC mouth of to a pilot maybe once a year. In the US I notice it maybe 4 times a year, with about an equal split in flight time north and south of the border.

In general they are still very helpful in the US as well. I'd never be afraid to talk to them, except maybe if I've already busted regulations intentionally, but that's not the case in this incident.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by Donald »

digits_ wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:04 pm
GoinVertical wrote: Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:58 pm Does anyone else feel that the relationship between pilots and ATC is a bit different in the USA?

Seems like I've heard/seen/read about lots of cases where pilots are "scared" of or intimidated by ATC.

I also feel like every time I've flown into US Airspace that center conveys a bit of a different attitude as compared to here... obviously not always, but a lot of the time.

Anyone with a lot of US experience have any input?
I've noticed some subtile differences as well. For the majority of the flights, there is no real difference, but I do have the impression that -in general- Canadian ATC always tries to keep the peace on the frequency. A badly placed remark, an inappropriate witty remark from a pilot etc gets ignored or defused by Canadian ATC. In the US, mainly the busier centers, they would start or engage those witty/sour disccussions. It usually starts off for a reason (mistake by the pilot), but I do experience it as a bit more confrontational.

To put some very rough estimated numbers on it, I hear Canadian ATC mouth of to a pilot maybe once a year. In the US I notice it maybe 4 times a year, with about an equal split in flight time north and south of the border.

In general they are still very helpful in the US as well. I'd never be afraid to talk to them, except maybe if I've already busted regulations intentionally, but that's not the case in this incident.

I'm guessing you don't fly out of YWG very often.
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Re: It might be best to get a top up enroute

Post by flyingnorm »

The difference is a cultural difference in every area of life. USA values independence and individual freedoms, Canada values compliance and social cooperation. Both cultures show in the air. Kinda goes back to 1776.
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