It might be best to get a top up enroute

[iflyforpie]

I don’t agree with you at all, Pelmet.

Extra fuel would have simply extended this guy’s complacency and indecisiveness. The only way his life would have been extended by years rather than hours is if an airport became VMC.

[pelmet]

I don’t agree with you at all, Pelmet.

Extra fuel would have simply extended this guy’s complacency and indecisiveness. The only way his life would have been extended by years rather than hours is if an airport became VMC.

That is because you haven't understood my posts. Just because in your opinion, it would not have helped this particular guy(and maybe it would not have helped), does not mean that it would not have helped someone else and therefore is a good idea overall. That is why even a government agency equivalent to Transport Canada, known as the New Zealand CAA recommends the same. Perhaps there is a reason why. Anybody care to guess.

By the way, the airport may have become VMC as the forecast was to improve greatly at the time of the accident. Wouldn't surprise me if an hour later, it was VMC as forecast.

Very odd how so many can't get their focus past one particular incident to ask themselves if it is a good idea overall....at least sometimes(which is why I titled the thread...'might be best to top up' as opposed to 'always is best to top up'.

[jschnurr]

This guy was 3:20 into his flight when things started going wrong. He already had 1.5 hrs of fuel past his destination on board. Stopping enroute for more fuel when there was no problem or need probably never crossed his mind, nor would it mine.

There were many options with the fuel he had on board. He ran out of fuel not due to lack of fuel, but because he lost situational awareness and couldn't process a dynamic weather situation or fly IFR approaches with a high degree of competence.

Reminds me of the anecdote about the kid who failed his class (back when kids could do that). The mom persuades the teacher to give him another chance, because, after all, her kid cannot be a failure. The kid gets another chance, and he fails again. He gets another chance, and another failure. This time the teacher failed him, because she realized that, at a certain point, no amount of extra attempts will produce a different outcome.

[7ECA]

Seems this is a human factors related accident more than anything; although poor flying skills on the buggered up approaches certainly didn't help.

Time in the tanks gives you options, if things do not go as planned. But, if you can't think straight or process information being provided to you, the extra time is not going to magically change the outcome.

The lesson that could be learned, is that launching into conditions that are beyond ones ability to handle is a bad idea. Unfortunately, too many people only learn this once they're already in the air - kind of a shitty time to start learning...

[rookiepilot]

That is because you haven't understood my posts.

Correct.

[Donald]

This thread is as dumb as the Teterboro Lear thread.

[jakeandelwood]

Instead of that controller saying "unless it's an emergency there is no way you can land at Dover" she could have said "it seems like you are having trouble sir, I can give you priority vectors into Dover if you declare an emergency" that may have coaxed him into swallowing his pride and declaring the emergency 10 minutes before he ran the tanks dry. I know, I know he is the PIC and has the final say.

[digits_]

Instead of that controller saying "unless it's an emergency there is no way you can land at Dover" she could have said "it seems like you are having trouble sir, I can give you priority vectors into Dover if you declare an emergency" that may have coaxed him into swallowing his pride and declaring the emergency 10 minutes before he ran the tanks dry. I know, I know he is the PIC and has the final say.

Do controllers see a history of approaches you have attempted during a flight or your full flight track? If not, how could she have known he was in trouble?

The reaction to him running out of fuel sounded a bit funny though. You could hear the eye roll in her voice.

[photofly]

Could any ATCO confirm (or deny) they get special training on how to sound cool and calm and not lose their shit when the pilot on the other end of the radio sounds like they know they’re about to die a horrible death?

[jakeandelwood]

Instead of that controller saying "unless it's an emergency there is no way you can land at Dover" she could have said "it seems like you are having trouble sir, I can give you priority vectors into Dover if you declare an emergency" that may have coaxed him into swallowing his pride and declaring the emergency 10 minutes before he ran the tanks dry. I know, I know he is the PIC and has the final say.

Do controllers see a history of approaches you have attempted during a flight or your full flight track? If not, how could she have known he was in trouble?

The reaction to him running out of fuel sounded a bit funny though. You could hear the eye roll in her voice.

That's what I thought, I was wondering if the controller had the flight history in front of them or that she had no idea of his missed approaches and time in the air, but she knew the weather was near minimums. I know it's not the controllers responsibility but couldn't she sense the increasing panic in the pilots voice?

[GoinVertical]

Does anyone else feel that the relationship between pilots and ATC is a bit different in the USA?

Seems like I've heard/seen/read about lots of cases where pilots are "scared" of or intimidated by ATC.

I also feel like every time I've flown into US Airspace that center conveys a bit of a different attitude as compared to here... obviously not always, but a lot of the time.

Anyone with a lot of US experience have any input?

[rookiepilot]

There were many options with the fuel he had on board. He ran out of fuel not due to lack of fuel, but because he lost situational awareness and couldn't process a dynamic weather situation or fly IFR approaches with a high degree of competence.

Excellent summary.

[digits_]

Does anyone else feel that the relationship between pilots and ATC is a bit different in the USA?

Seems like I've heard/seen/read about lots of cases where pilots are "scared" of or intimidated by ATC.

I also feel like every time I've flown into US Airspace that center conveys a bit of a different attitude as compared to here... obviously not always, but a lot of the time.

Anyone with a lot of US experience have any input?

I've noticed some subtile differences as well. For the majority of the flights, there is no real difference, but I do have the impression that -in general- Canadian ATC always tries to keep the peace on the frequency. A badly placed remark, an inappropriate witty remark from a pilot etc gets ignored or defused by Canadian ATC. In the US, mainly the busier centers, they would start or engage those witty/sour disccussions. It usually starts off for a reason (mistake by the pilot), but I do experience it as a bit more confrontational.

To put some very rough estimated numbers on it, I hear Canadian ATC mouth of to a pilot maybe once a year. In the US I notice it maybe 4 times a year, with about an equal split in flight time north and south of the border.

In general they are still very helpful in the US as well. I'd never be afraid to talk to them, except maybe if I've already busted regulations intentionally, but that's not the case in this incident.

[Donald]

Does anyone else feel that the relationship between pilots and ATC is a bit different in the USA?

Seems like I've heard/seen/read about lots of cases where pilots are "scared" of or intimidated by ATC.

I also feel like every time I've flown into US Airspace that center conveys a bit of a different attitude as compared to here... obviously not always, but a lot of the time.

Anyone with a lot of US experience have any input?

I've noticed some subtile differences as well. For the majority of the flights, there is no real difference, but I do have the impression that -in general- Canadian ATC always tries to keep the peace on the frequency. A badly placed remark, an inappropriate witty remark from a pilot etc gets ignored or defused by Canadian ATC. In the US, mainly the busier centers, they would start or engage those witty/sour disccussions. It usually starts off for a reason (mistake by the pilot), but I do experience it as a bit more confrontational.

To put some very rough estimated numbers on it, I hear Canadian ATC mouth of to a pilot maybe once a year. In the US I notice it maybe 4 times a year, with about an equal split in flight time north and south of the border.

In general they are still very helpful in the US as well. I'd never be afraid to talk to them, except maybe if I've already busted regulations intentionally, but that's not the case in this incident.

I'm guessing you don't fly out of YWG very often.

[flyingnorm]

The difference is a cultural difference in every area of life. USA values independence and individual freedoms, Canada values compliance and social cooperation. Both cultures show in the air. Kinda goes back to 1776.