Snowbird crash in CYKA

[cncpc]

This question...

It seems that where this procedure went wrong is with the stall spin at the top of the zoom. From what I read, it seems that the initiating event was trying the turn at low airspeed.

Looking for an answer from the military guys and women here on this. What if this aircraft had started the turn as soon as power was lost, once it was through 90 without climbing, then zoomed? Or was turning 15 deg bank all through the zoom?

In the actual scenario, the entire zoom gains height at the expense of gaining distance from the safe harbour of the airfield, or even any field in the area before the stub runway. An immediate turn with a safe airspeed margin keeps the aircraft closer to where safety might be, and the result at top of zoom might have offered a better picture than the Captain had just before the wing dropped.

I understand that the low level turn causes drag and loses some lift, and that top of zoom will be lower, but safety is significantly closer. And the turn at the top is not 180, probably less than 60.

Not wedded to the idea, or waiting for the call from Stockholm, but I would like to hear from the military guys. I also understand that this approach may be very airport specific. And, would the existence of that stub have been in that pilot's mind as a result of the EFTO briefing he would have given himself and Capt. Casey?

[PilotDAR]

There's talk of a "zoom" maneuver. Hey, I've even done it in the lowly 150. But to zoom, one must have excess speed to trade for altitude. Would a Tutor jet on a "normal" departure over a city, be carrying excess speed? To be carrying the excess speed implies that the plane was not climbed at Vy, and therefore lower than necessary over the city on departure.

Otherwise, is any meaningful "zoom" possible from Vy in a military jet? I don't expect that it would be in a comparable GA plane.

[AirFrame]

There's talk of a "zoom" maneuver. Hey, I've even done it in the lowly 150. But to zoom, one must have excess speed to trade for altitude. Would a Tutor jet on a "normal" departure over a city, be carrying excess speed? To be carrying the excess speed implies that the plane was not climbed at Vy, and therefore lower than necessary over the city on departure.

You can see in the videos that the jets intentionally stayed low in formation to accelerate over the waiting crowd. They certainly had excess airspeed over Vy, but how much I couldn't say. The Tutor is a relatively underpowered jet I understand.

Otherwise, is any meaningful "zoom" possible from Vy in a military jet? I don't expect that it would be in a comparable GA plane.

I'd guess not without afterburners.

[fleet16b]

There's talk of a "zoom" maneuver. Hey, I've even done it in the lowly 150. But to zoom, one must have excess speed to trade for altitude. Would a Tutor jet on a "normal" departure over a city, be carrying excess speed? To be carrying the excess speed implies that the plane was not climbed at Vy, and therefore lower than necessary over the city on departure.

You can see in the videos that the jets intentionally stayed low in formation to accelerate over the waiting crowd. They certainly had excess airspeed over Vy, but how much I couldn't say. The Tutor is a relatively underpowered jet I understand.

Otherwise, is any meaningful "zoom" possible from Vy in a military jet? I don't expect that it would be in a comparable GA plane.

I'd guess not without afterburners.

And there lies an entirely other issue
On departure , they did not climb as per usual take off procedure but stayed low to give the crowd a show
I understand that the S/Birds are entertainment but the show was long over , no need to take risks showboating

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

no need to take risks showboating

They showboat for a living. That's kinda harsh.

[Bandit_20]

There's talk of a "zoom" maneuver. Hey, I've even done it in the lowly 150. But to zoom, one must have excess speed to trade for altitude. Would a Tutor jet on a "normal" departure over a city, be carrying excess speed? To be carrying the excess speed implies that the plane was not climbed at Vy, and therefore lower than necessary over the city on departure.

You can see in the videos that the jets intentionally stayed low in formation to accelerate over the waiting crowd. They certainly had excess airspeed over Vy, but how much I couldn't say. The Tutor is a relatively underpowered jet I understand.

Otherwise, is any meaningful "zoom" possible from Vy in a military jet? I don't expect that it would be in a comparable GA plane.

I'd guess not without afterburners.

And there lies an entirely other issue
On departure , they did not climb as per usual take off procedure but stayed low to give the crowd a show

May you please kindly provide a reference source for this statement? Preferably from the RCAF/DFS?

[fleet16b]

no need to take risks showboating

They showboat for a living. That's kinda harsh.

Yes , as I stated their job is promotion and entertainment
A job that comes at a risk.
However, this incident did not happen during a show and did not happen to one of the performers.
There was absolutely no need to carry out a shallow take off for the few people that were there.
Had they done a standard by the book take off they would have most likely avoided and low flying birds
Hindsight is golden but it can be used to change the future
Hopefully they address these useless post show maneuvers

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

no need to take risks showboating

They showboat for a living. That's kinda harsh.

There was absolutely no need to carry out a shallow take off for the few people that were there.

That is a matter of opinion (there was no need for Operation Inspiration in the first place), however I am in agreement with everything else you said.

I think everyone here has heard "caution, wildlife in the vicinity" on an ATIS and ignored it. I don't think I can rightfully fault the pilot for underestimatnig the possibility of a bird strike.

[PilotDAR]

During a flight test symposium I attended a number of years back, there was a really interesting presentation on demonstration and airshow flying. I thought to myself, interesting, but what does this have to do with design flight testing? As I sat and listened, it all began to make sense. The very wise presenter explained that for a new type, it was very likely that the original test pilots would be tasked with airshow and demonstration flying of the company's pride and joy. The test pilot would probably be put into this role with less ideal training and experience as an airshow pilot, but similarly, or more so, be expected to show the aircraft to its greatest performance, and certainly prevent anything the least bit discrediting to the company. Yup, been there, had to do that!

Anyone who "performs" with a plane has the extra responsibilities of flying a safe demonstration when everyone is watching - which will be every time the plane flies, and to actively prevent a little bad becoming a big bad. Flying demonstration, you never get to say "time out" while I deal with this, everything you do is being watched and judged. When I knew that I would have to demonstrate a plane, I would practice as much as opportunity allowed, establish comfortable limits for myself, and fly with a couple of extra knots margin on the safer side, all the way around.

... And then the new amphibian owner comes from overseas, for the demo flight in his new baby, and the wind is 15G25, and I have to find a way to make water operations look smooth and simple.... Another story....

I have empathy for the Snowbird pilots, always on stage. But nothing exempts them from an everyday occurrence, and they still are expected to make it turn out well.

[Skyhunter]

There's talk of a "zoom" maneuver. Hey, I've even done it in the lowly 150. But to zoom, one must have excess speed to trade for altitude. Would a Tutor jet on a "normal" departure over a city, be carrying excess speed? To be carrying the excess speed implies that the plane was not climbed at Vy, and therefore lower than necessary over the city on departure.

You can see in the videos that the jets intentionally stayed low in formation to accelerate over the waiting crowd. They certainly had excess airspeed over Vy, but how much I couldn't say. The Tutor is a relatively underpowered jet I understand.

Otherwise, is any meaningful "zoom" possible from Vy in a military jet? I don't expect that it would be in a comparable GA plane.

I'd guess not without afterburners.

And there lies an entirely other issue
On departure , they did not climb as per usual take off procedure but stayed low to give the crowd a show
I understand that the S/Birds are entertainment but the show was long over , no need to take risks showboating

You have a lot to say for someone who isn’t familiar with normal ops of the tutor.

Normal climb is 220. That also equates to best rate at ISA. Best angle was 130 and the nose at that is uncomfortably high with poor visibility for a prolonged period. While down low other than final approach I would never have the jet at less than 220 and after takeoff would stay low and accelerate to at least 220 as quickly as possible.

SO I HAVE AIRSPEED TO ZOOM!!!

I am then at 130 with a much smaller turn radius will turn IF !!! I have the altitude to do so.

That 90 kt zoom (if memory serves correctly, it has been a while) should get me 1200-1500 feet.

Staying low to accelerate is not showboating!

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Normal climb is 220. That also equates to best rate at ISA.

Forgive my ignorance - what exactly is ISA?

[PilotDAR]

Normal climb is 220. .....
SO I HAVE AIRSPEED TO ZOOM!!!

I am then at 130 with a much smaller turn radius will turn IF !!! I have the altitude to do so.

That 90 kt zoom (if memory serves correctly, it has been a while) should get me 1200-1500 feet.

Honest question, 'cause I don't know the Tutor at all; What's a comfortable power off approach speed, for an intended power off landing in a Tutor?

['97 Tercel]

Normal climb is 220. That also equates to best rate at ISA.

Forgive my ignorance - what exactly is ISA?

standard atmosshere

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Normal climb is 220. That also equates to best rate at ISA.

Forgive my ignorance - what exactly is ISA?

standard atmosshere

Well, don't I feel like quite the idiot now...

[Skyhunter]

Normal climb is 220. .....
SO I HAVE AIRSPEED TO ZOOM!!!

I am then at 130 with a much smaller turn radius will turn IF !!! I have the altitude to do so.

That 90 kt zoom (if memory serves correctly, it has been a while) should get me 1200-1500 feet.

Honest question, 'cause I don't know the Tutor at all; What's a comfortable power off approach speed, for an intended power off landing in a Tutor?

130 kts until take gear and flaps. Delay that as long as feasible if your low. After gear and flaps around 95. Again it’s been a few years but should be reasonably close. Until gear and flap it glides better than a Cessna. 14:1 glide ratio so long as the engine isn’t seized.

[RatherBeFlying]

According to Newton, total energy = mgh + mv²/2

g = 32.2 ft/sec²

1 ft/sec = 0.592 kt or 1 kt = 1.69 ft/sec

So 220 kt = 372 ft/sec
and 130 kt = 220 fn/sec

Assume 0 for engine failure realisation altitude, initial climb rate, drag and residual thrust.

KE / unit mass at 220 = 372²/2 = 69192

Reducing to 130, KE = 220²/2 = 24200

leaving ≈45000 / 32.2 ≈ 1400'

Drag will reduce that number.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

According to Newton, total energy = mgh + mv²/2

Yes but Newton was wrong, and Einstein proved it.

(sorry, I'm just trolling... please ignore me)

[Skyhunter]

According to Newton, total energy = mgh + mv²/2

g = 32.2 ft/sec²

1 ft/sec = 0.592 kt or 1 kt = 1.69 ft/sec

So 220 kt = 372 ft/sec
and 130 kt = 220 fn/sec

Assume 0 for engine failure realisation altitude, initial climb rate, drag and residual thrust.

KE / unit mass at 220 = 372²/2 = 69192

Reducing to 130, KE = 220²/2 = 24200

leaving ≈45000 / 32.2 ≈ 1400'

Drag will reduce that number.

Yes it will but the aircraft already has a significant upward vector if you have started to climb. That will help take out some of the losses for drag etc.

Just did the same math btw but converted it all to metric for the math and then back to feet. You beat me to posting it.

[Outlaw58]

Been doing really good biting my tongue and not jump in...until now.

Speaking as a former Snowbird 10, I'll say out loud what quite a number of my former squadron mates are thinking, reading uninformed opinions and unsubstantiated assumptions from unqualified individuals written from the comfort of their living rooms with the luxury of a complete accident report, hindsight 20/20 and unlimited amount of time to ponder the actions of a pilot who had mere seconds to act:

"How dare you judge and think you or anyone would have done better?" You guys sound like the investigation board that tried to demonstrate Sully could have made it back to Teterborough or La Guardia! Let's get serious now shall we? I believe he would say.

A bon entendeur, Salut!

58

[frosti]

reading uninformed opinions and unsubstantiated assumptions from unqualified individuals written from the comfort of their living rooms with the luxury of a complete accident report,

Does it really matter what this eco chamber thinks? Best to just ignore it.