172 down Hope BC ???

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patter
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by patter »

It’s a rather bold comment to tell a pilot to ask a flight instructor for advice about flying in the mountains on the Vancouver coast. Their experience is usually quite limited in mountain flying.
Although it was not in the Hope Princeton, there have been a few crashes by flight instructors in the mountains in the Coastal Region.
The accidents near Tipella with instructors, resulted in death, and serious injuries. There have been others as well. Be careful who you talk to.
New flight instructors on the coast have had maybe a mountain cross country for a couple hours, and most of their cross country has been above the mountains. And they teach mountain cross countries.
If you are going to fly low in the mountains along low level routes without experience, fly it in good weather first.
Cruising altitudes low in the valleys is a joke. If you are low in the valleys and inexperienced on the route, fly with altitude above you and below your position. Always keep a turning radius. Your visibility should be at least 6 miles and watch your OAT. Your goal is to be an old pilot like me, and have common sense.
Where I am I at the moment, we had warmer air 1000 feet above the ground and freezing at the surface. Snow at the surface and liquid at 1000. Nothing in weather reporting to say so.
My latest favourite weather map for general and broad information accross the country is Ventusky.
I like the current Hope set up regarding Nav Canada weather.
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cncpc
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by cncpc »

challenger_nami wrote: Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:28 pm Here are my suggestions for someone who is planning to fly through the BC Mountains around CYHE for the first time.

The above are my suggestions. Due your due diligence and consult with an approved flight instructor.
With proper planning, it can be a safe and enjoyable flight.
What are your qualifications to make these suggestions?
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challenger_nami
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by challenger_nami »

cncpc wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:31 pm
What are your qualifications to make these suggestions?
There you talk again CNCPC ... my qualifications are More than .yours.
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Last edited by challenger_nami on Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rookiepilot
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by rookiepilot »

patter wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:52 pm It’s a rather bold comment to tell a pilot to ask a flight instructor for advice about flying in the mountains on the Vancouver coast. Their experience is usually quite limited in mountain flying.
Agreed. Most I've met have little to no experience in IMC, either, even in flat terrain.

Some things it's better to learn from a very experienced mentor pilot, if possible.
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Last edited by rookiepilot on Mon Nov 16, 2020 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
karmutzen
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by karmutzen »

It might be a good idea for NavCanada to remove the AWOS system at CYHE and install more accurate Weather Cameras there.
There’s already more than 10 cameras within 10 miles of Hope. NavCanada, DriveBC, private, (try Windy.com) and I use them all. How many more do you think you need???
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challenger_nami
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by challenger_nami »

:prayer:
patter wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:52 pm It’s a rather bold comment to tell a pilot to ask a flight instructor for advice about flying in the mountains on the Vancouver coast. Their experience is usually quite limited in mountain flying.
Although it was not in the Hope Princeton, there have been a few crashes by flight instructors in the mountains in the Coastal Region.
The accidents near Tipella with instructors, resulted in death, and serious injuries. There have been others as well. Be careful who you talk to.
New flight instructors on the coast have had maybe a mountain cross country for a couple hours, and most of their cross country has been above the mountains. And they teach mountain cross countries.
If you are going to fly low in the mountains along low level routes without experience, fly it in good weather first.
Cruising altitudes low in the valleys is a joke. If you are low in the valleys and inexperienced on the route, fly with altitude above you and below your position. Always keep a turning radius. Your visibility should be at least 6 miles and watch your OAT. Your goal is to be an old pilot like me, and have common sense.
Where I am I at the moment, we had warmer air 1000 feet above the ground and freezing at the surface. Snow at the surface and liquid at 1000. Nothing in weather reporting to say so.
My latest favourite weather map for general and broad information accross the country is Ventusky.
I like the current Hope set up regarding Nav Canada weather.
Of course there have been accidents with instructors as well. But if you do the math, you will see a lower number of accidents caused by instructors as opposed to some random pilot.... and when I say instructors, I don’t mean some new class 4 instructor, I mean more experienced instructors with mountain experience.... specifically, the instructors who teach in Squamish airport.


for the record, I am not an instructor.

@PATTER,
I don’t know how you can possibly like the current Hope setup.
ATTACHED is what the AWOS is reporting at the time of me writing this at 2200zulu on the 16th.

the AWOS is reporting 8 SM VISIBILITY, when you look at the images and references, you can clearly see the visibility is barely 1.5 mile.

The AWOSis reporting clouds at 3000’.but it is not even detecting the few or possibly scattered clouds at around 1500’ over the circuit.....

and that is how people end up crashing: the pilot looks at the AWOS and sees 3000’ and 8 am visibility .... then ends up in 1500’ scattered at 2 mile visibility .... with 4000’+ mountains all over.


There’s already more than 10 cameras within 10 miles of Hope. NavCanada, DriveBC, private, (try Windy.com) and I use them all. How many more do you think you need???

@Karmutzen
The more the merrier.
Plus, when we talk about Camera’s , we are talking about aviation cameras with references such than as a pilot you can interpret Ceiling and Visibility from the image .... not just some random traffic camera.
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Last edited by challenger_nami on Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
shamrock104
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by shamrock104 »

I have had students approach me and ask for a Mountain check out and to me that's the blind leading the blind. As much as I would like to I direct them to find someone with a ton of experience and go fly with them. They of course do not have to be Flight Instructor"s.
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rookiepilot
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by rookiepilot »

The AOPA has some good material on safe flying in the mountains. (And all kinds of flying)

They had a great online course I recall taking but I can't seem to bring it up. Might have been decommissioned.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... -mountains

As for flight instructors being any guarantee----

When searching I found this, a 1700 hour CFI who decided to take off, in the mountains, at gross weight, on one magneto.

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... ain-flying

This is another one, with a CFI, a 172 trying to fly through mountains with 60 MPH winds. Caught in mountain wave....

https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safet ... flying-(2)
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pelmet
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by pelmet »

patter wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:52 pm Be careful who you talk to.
Something I have stated many times and agree with
patter wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:52 pm If you are going to fly low in the mountains along low level routes without experience, fly it in good weather first.
Cruising altitudes low in the valleys is a joke. If you are low in the valleys and inexperienced on the route, fly with altitude above you and below your position. Always keep a turning radius. Your visibility should be at least 6 miles and watch your OAT. Your goal is to be an old pilot like me, and have common sense.
Thanks for the advice
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PilotDAR
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by PilotDAR »

I claim very little experience with the type of mountain flying that poor weather at Hope demands, I've only done it four times, with great caution and planning each time.

Though I respect the role of an instructor, that role is to instruct. An instructor has demonstrated skills in instructing, not necessarily mountain flying. Just as an instructor could be awesome at instructing, but have no tailwheel time, and thus be a poor instructor in a taildragger. If you know an experienced mountain pilot, who's also an instructor, perfect, ask them!

Of course, inexperienced pilots should seek mentoring for mountain flying. I'm not quite sure how the effectiveness of that training is measured, but I'm sure that "instructor" is not an automatic qualification to give that training.

I sent an experienced flatland pilot on a three day "mountain course" taught in Calgary, many years ago, as he was being sent (in the plane I was responsible for) to fly in the BC mountains. He died doing an unwise thing in a valley (during CAVU), which I would have hoped that the mountain course would have taught him not to attempt. So much for "mountain training" by who knows whom!

As for airplane performance, I have learned that moving mountain air can outperform any GA plane, so avoidance is the best plan.
even though I probably know more than you, PATTER
.

How have you made that determination Nami? And, how is it useful?
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ahramin
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by ahramin »

challenger_nami wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:27 pm ATTACHED is what the AWOS is reporting at the time of me writing this at 2200zulu on the 16th.

the AWOS is reporting 8 SM VISIBILITY, when you look at the images and references, you can clearly see the visibility is barely 1.5 mile.
Actually, you can see in the webcam shot that the visibility is at least 4 miles. 8 SM is the prevailing visibility, and as the note right in the picture says: "prevailing visibility cannot be determined by using a single sector video image".

When discussing weather reports and reporting equipment, the first step should be knowing what one is talking about and that includes hitting the books and reading the notes.
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pelmet
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by pelmet »

I did a mountain flying course with a guy named Michael Peare out of Boundary Bay a few years back. He seemed pretty good if one is looking for an instructor although I don't have any other mountain flying course instructors for comparison. He might not be around a lot though based on his website entries.

http://www.mpaviation.com/site.htm
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ahramin
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by ahramin »

Normally Michael is gone most of the year and not very available even when he's in town but during Covid he has had to give up his wandering ways and is stuck in Canada for the duration. I had to divert to Langley last month and he was offering me a ride back to my airport before I had cleared the runway! He's around a great deal lately. Similarly many experienced pilots are not working right now and so have the time to do training. You're not likely to find them by asking a flight school for a mountain checkout but a quick hello on AvCanada or the BCGA website would find plenty of qualified people.

One thing though, the schools have Covid policies in place and are following them. If you're going with a freelance pilot, make sure they are following similar protocols.

EDIT: I see Michael is back in the UK.
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challenger_nami
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by challenger_nami »

ahramin wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:56 pm
challenger_nami wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 3:27 pm ATTACHED is what the AWOS is reporting at the time of me writing this at 2200zulu on the 16th.

the AWOS is reporting 8 SM VISIBILITY, when you look at the images and references, you can clearly see the visibility is barely 1.5 mile.
Actually, you can see in the webcam shot that the visibility is at least 4 miles. 8 SM is the prevailing visibility, and as the note right in the picture says: "prevailing visibility cannot be determined by using a single sector video image".

When discussing weather reports and reporting equipment, the first step should be knowing what one is talking about and that includes hitting the books and reading the notes.
@ahramin,
I am kinda surprised you say it’s 4 SM. Even Though it’s hard to see the ridge @ 1.5 SM, and the ridge at @2.5 SM.

Anyhow, I am guessing with 8 miles prevailing visibility like that as reported by CYHE AWOS, which is supposed to be fully VFR you would be happy to put your family in an airplane and fly to Hope, right?


.
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Last edited by challenger_nami on Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cncpc
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by cncpc »

pelmet wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 5:59 pm I did a mountain flying course with a guy named Michael Peare out of Boundary Bay a few years back. He seemed pretty good if one is looking for an instructor although I don't have any other mountain flying course instructors for comparison. He might not be around a lot though based on his website entries.

http://www.mpaviation.com/site.htm
I thought I should say that in the context of mountain flying course, the word "instructor" is the same as teacher. It does not necessarily mean you have to seek out someone who is an expert on the mountains and holds an instructor rating. Because you will be looking for a long, long time. Not saying they aren't any, and unlike fixed wing, there are some superb helicopter mountain pilots who are also instructors.

To my mind, and within my professional circles, I doubt there is a better mountain pilot in BC than Silvertip Dave at Revelstoke. He doesn't have an instructor rating, but he has more than 15,000 hours down on the ground in those mountains tracking animals for various government bodies.

It's the same with multi ratings and instrument ratings, the instructor doesn't have to have an instructor rating.
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by PT6-114A »

One must watch. I said I was going to do some mountain flying with a young guy (I am not an instructor) but have boat loads of mountain time, IFR time but it was suggested that we old guys that are just sitting around leave it to the pilots that get paid and not poach there flying. Kind of made me sad. All I wanted to do was help out a young guy. Just my view but it seems that most (NOT ALL) instructors are just a few steps ahead of the students as they them selfs just got a newly minted licence.
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rookiepilot
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Re: 172 down Hope BC ???

Post by rookiepilot »

PT6-114A wrote: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:06 pm I said I was going to do some mountain flying with a young guy (I am not an instructor) but have boat loads of mountain time, IFR time but it was suggested that we old guys that are just sitting around leave it to the pilots that get paid and not poach there flying.
Hmmmm.
FWIW I think it's great you're offering to share your experience. I wouldn't worry about anyone's opinions on poaching.

For mountain training the last place I'd go is almost any FTU.....I'd rather an "old guy" -- (not too too far away myself) --- and am very thankful for my "old guy" mentor friends".....learned a ton from them.
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