Was it the Circuit Breaker

[pelmet]

https://news.usni.org/2020/06/12/skydiv ... aging-both

This accident reminds me of an event I had many years ago up in Tanquary Fiord(nice place). We overnighted in the Twin Otter. A lot of captains would pull the CB for the hydraulic pump at night(to minimize any battery power use prior to the next engine start just in case the battery was low). This captain had not done that but I decided to do it later assuming he forgot which was a bad idea. Even worse, I didn't remember to tell him about it. The next day, when we went into the aircraft, he started the engines and we started rolling forward as we had no brakes. Of course, no one had checked the CB's. The captain immediately knew the problem and reached over and pushed in the breaker and we then had brakes.

I wonder if that was happened here. Check the CB's before starting.

[telex]

Always check the circuit breakers...



"The causes of the accident were the center hydraulic hose leak, the popped circuit breaker, and pilot error due to the flight crew failing to detect the breaker."

[photofly]

<cough> checklist <cough>

[7ECA]

<cough> checklist <cough>

Or... maybe don't @#$! with things that aren't supposed to be fucked with - like pulling CBs; unless there's a procedure for doing so in the POH/AFM/checklist(s), etc.

[NotDirty!]

Most planes I have flown have included a CB check on the checklist... but the problem is when you check them enough times without there being any tripped breakers, you run the risk of “looking without seeing”... you may think you’re completing the checklist item, but instead you’re just going through the motions.
This is especially a problem with long, tedious checklists. You may think that you are being extra safe by having a very detailed checklist, but if you simply provide the correct response without actually checking the item (thoroughly, for things like CBs) you aren’t doing yourself any favours.
So rather than trying to capture everything on a checklist, it is better to keep them brief and efficient!

[rigpiggy]

This is why i liked the flat panel, with collars for pulled cb's. Run hand a cross panel, tactile feel

[Heliian]

<cough> checklist <cough>

Or... maybe don't @#$! with things that aren't supposed to be fucked with - like pulling CBs; unless there's a procedure for doing so in the POH/AFM/checklist(s), etc.

If you're picking up an aircraft that's been in for 2 weeks of service, it's a no brainer that you should check the cb panel.

Actually, you should check it before every start. No checklist needed, it's the same for all types.

Same thing about making sure the doors are closed. It's on you.

[challenger_nami]

Most planes I have flown have included a CB check on the checklist... but the problem is when you check them enough times without there being any tripped breakers, you run the risk of “looking without seeing”... you may think you’re completing the checklist item, but instead you’re just going through the motions.
This is especially a problem with long, tedious checklists. You may think that you are being extra safe by having a very detailed checklist, but if you simply provide the correct response without actually checking the item (thoroughly, for things like CBs) you aren’t doing yourself any favours.
So rather than trying to capture everything on a checklist, it is better to keep them brief and efficient!

I fully agree with your point: Checklists should be as brief as possible. And the crew have to be disciplined as to be fully aware of the checklist items they respond to, as opposed to just reading the verbal script without actually checking.

I am not talking about Cessnas and other trainers here,
IN COMPLEX AIRCRAFT :
The issue is that if an important item is not in the checklist, there is a very high chance of it not being checked.
If the item is on a long checklist, it still may be overlooked, but the probability of that happening is lower.

[photofly]

I am not talking about Cessnas and other trainers here, IN COMPLEX AIRCRAFT :
The issue is that if an important item is not in the checklist, there is a very high chance of it not being checked.
If the item is on a long checklist, it still may be overlooked, but the probability of that happening is lower.

Why is it different in Cessnas?

[pelmet]

<cough> checklist <cough>

Or... maybe don't @#$! with things that aren't supposed to be fucked with - like pulling CBs; unless there's a procedure for doing so in the POH/AFM/checklist(s), etc.

If you're picking up an aircraft that's been in for 2 weeks of service, it's a no brainer that you should check the cb panel.

Actually, you should check it before every start. No checklist needed, it's the same for all types.

Same thing about making sure the doors are closed. It's on you.

Thanks for the replies about the subject.

This happened quite a long time ago that it happened and I can't remember if we were just re-positioning to another spot on the ramp or going for the flight itself. Either way, it just shows that it is a good idea to check those breakers. In the DHC-6 they are not on the forward panel in plain sight like on a typical light aircraft.

[challenger_nami]

I am not talking about Cessnas and other trainers here, IN COMPLEX AIRCRAFT :
The issue is that if an important item is not in the checklist, there is a very high chance of it not being checked.
If the item is on a long checklist, it still may be overlooked, but the probability of that happening is lower.

Why is it different in Cessnas?

Don’t take me wrong, pilots of Cessnas or other trainers can benefit from following the checklist. Specially student pilots, or the ones with low hours.

However, because trainers are designed to be simple to operated by student pilots, almost everything is in the same area of the panel and can be covered in a flow. And even if something gets overlooked, it rarely results in a disaster.

PLUS, many Cessna pilots think they know it all ... and it’s hard to convince them to use the checklist. Do you not think so @PhotoFly?




.

[rookiepilot]

I fully agree with your point: Checklists should be as brief as possible.

THIS.

[photofly]

PLUS, many Cessna pilots think they know it all ... and it’s hard to convince them to use the checklist. Do you not think so @PhotoFly?

No, that's not my experience at all. All the pilots I know are very faithful to their yards-long checklists, which they use as a set of comprehensive and all-encompassing instructions. In fact I believe many Cessna pilots would feel more comfortable with a comprehensive list of instructions for every manoeuvre in every phase of flight. It would save all that annoying learning-to-fly business if everything could done from a written list.

However, because trainers are designed to be simple to operated by student pilots, almost everything is in the same area of the panel and can be covered in a flow. And even if something gets overlooked, it rarely results in a disaster.

So why are there checklists at all, in a training airplane?

[photofly]

Going back to the original post, if there was fault, was it the fault of the person who pulled the CB or the person who didn't check the CB before the next filght? I can't make up my mind either way.

[challenger_nami]

@photofly,
I got your point ... which was my own point..., and I am sure you are smart enough to understand my point.

I am not engaging in another pointless discussion to nowhere, with you.
Cheers

[pelmet]

Going back to the original post, if there was fault, was it the fault of the person who pulled the CB or the person who didn't check the CB before the next filght? I can't make up my mind either way.

I just went back to the old checklist on the aircraft. It does have CB's as part of the pre-start. I don't remember all the details of how it went down on that event but a lot of the old school captains would not use a checklist. On many flights, the engines were started and started taxiing while the F/O was still tying stuff down although I don't think that was the situation here, as I remember being in the cockpit. But it would be quite possible that things were just started up. Or possible that I read the checklist, the captain responded and in fact had not checked and I didn't double check the CB's.

On more recent large types, I like to check the CB's even if it was not my official duty for a particular flight. I have found an occasional popped one. One aircraft I was on, it was common for the sim instructor to have a CB popped for the crew to see if they would find it. That aircraft had a lot of CB's.

[7ECA]

If you're picking up an aircraft that's been in for 2 weeks of service, it's a no brainer that you should check the cb panel.

Actually, you should check it before every start. No checklist needed, it's the same for all types.

Same thing about making sure the doors are closed. It's on you.

No doubt about it, I agree wholeheartedly that one should be checking these sorts of things pre-start - and in phases of flight where a popped CB could cause issues... And when it comes to taking possession of an aeroplane after maintenance? You can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to be taking a more leisurely time looking for gremlins.

Having said that, on a multi-crew aircraft if one crew member is pulling CBs as part of their own home-brewed pseudo "procedure" - and not making the other crew(s) aware of said action; that's rather negligent in my view. The problem, especially with some smaller operations, is the reliance on memory checks rather than checklist use - which can result in complacency. You've never had a popped/pulled CB before, so you just wave your hand over the main panel and move on - or maybe you check the main panel diligently, but you forget about the panel that's over on the right side (like on the Single Swine)... Mind you, the argument that a longer checklist would prevent things being missed is just as fallacious; when pilots aren't necessarily utilizing/following the "standard" checklists to begin with.

Shit happens, of that there's little doubt. But, does one really need to be on guard for other pilots to be randomly pulling CBs?

Maybe pelly should have added that CB he was pulling to his "killer item" checks - but he didn't. Maybe he should have... just not pulled the CB at random? Yeah, I like that option most...

[North Shore]

OK, a bunch of extraneous posts have been deleted.

Carry on...without the squabbles. We are all on the same team (get home safely each day) here..

[Heliian]

If you're picking up an aircraft that's been in for 2 weeks of service, it's a no brainer that you should check the cb panel.

Actually, you should check it before every start. No checklist needed, it's the same for all types.

Same thing about making sure the doors are closed. It's on you.

No doubt about it, I agree wholeheartedly that one should be checking these sorts of things pre-start - and in phases of flight where a popped CB could cause issues... And when it comes to taking possession of an aeroplane after maintenance? You can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to be taking a more leisurely time looking for gremlins.

Having said that, on a multi-crew aircraft if one crew member is pulling CBs as part of their own home-brewed pseudo "procedure" - and not making the other crew(s) aware of said action; that's rather negligent in my view. The problem, especially with some smaller operations, is the reliance on memory checks rather than checklist use - which can result in complacency. You've never had a popped/pulled CB before, so you just wave your hand over the main panel and move on - or maybe you check the main panel diligently, but you forget about the panel that's over on the right side (like on the Single Swine)... Mind you, the argument that a longer checklist would prevent things being missed is just as fallacious; when pilots aren't necessarily utilizing/following the "standard" checklists to begin with.

Shit happens, of that there's little doubt. But, does one really need to be on guard for other pilots to be randomly pulling CBs?

Maybe pelly should have added that CB he was pulling to his "killer item" checks - but he didn't. Maybe he should have... just not pulled the CB at random? Yeah, I like that option most...

Ah, it would just so happen that there are breakers that get pulled as part of sop's or for safe maintenance practices, like the start and ign cb's. We know that pelmet screwed up once but in this case, it was a single pilot flying the aircraft.

[challenger_nami]

Maybe he should have... just not pulled the CB at random? Yeah, I like that option most...

So you just show up to the airplane hoping that all the knobs, switches and circuit breakers are where they are supposed to be?

As @Heliian pointed, CBs get pulled for different reasons some of which are authentic.
Maybe maintenance pulled it and forgot to switch it back afterwards, or maybe some stupid person wanted to pull a prank on you.

As the pilot, when you show up to the airplane, you are the one responsible to complete proper walk around, system checks and run ups before you take off. It’s your own life at stake.