I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

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pelmet
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I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by pelmet »

I always wondered how well it and would work but never tried it. I can't remember if it was because somebody mentioned that it was not reliable or for some other reason. Has anyone else done a practice extension(or real life requirement) and how well did it work.

"C-GKKS, a privately registered Piper PA-28R-201T was conducting a flight from
Edmonton/Cooking Lake (CEZ3) AB to Fort Frances Municipal airport (CYAG) ON. When
approximately 20 NM from CYXE, the pilot experienced a full panel electrical failure that resulted in
no communications. The pilot selected 7600 on the transponder and made contact with CYXE
tower with an onboard cellphone. During the final approach to Runway 27 at CYXE, the pilot
selected gear down but did not hear the landing gear extend. The pilot decided to conduct a tower
fly past inspection for a gear verification check. CYXE tower indicated there was no gear
extension. The pilot completed the emergency gear extension checklist procedure that included
aggressive left and right yaw movement in an attempt to lock the main landing gear down. A
second tower fly past inspection indicated there was no gear extension. The pilot conducted a gear
up landing with ARFF on standby. There were no injuries to the pilot or the passenger but the
aircraft sustained substantial damage.

During the recovery process the aircraft landing gear extended and locked when the aircraft was
raised."
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iflyforpie
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by iflyforpie »

Never did. Not even on jacks. Maybe I should have?

I always thought it was a pretty foolproof system. The gear is only held up by hydraulic pressure from the power pack. Pull the emergency extension and the pressure is removed. Gear falls into place. The nose gear is aided by the wind and the wing rocking is supposed to lock the mains but I don’t recall that procedure.

The Arrow is also supposed to have a fool-proof automatic gear extension. The pitot tube on the left side is connected to another pressure relief valve and if the power is chopped at a low speed, down the gear goes.

There’s an override for this so the gear doesn’t drop when doing stall practice etc. It’s spring loaded down by the flap lever. But most I’ve seen are locked into the override position. So much for fool-proof.

Incidentally, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered an Arrow that hasn’t landed wheels up at least once.
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by PilotDAR »

The automatic extension system in the Arrow worked, though not perfectly. I believe that it was to be permanently disabled in accordance with Piper instructions, but I don't recall the details. I remember that a few times, when I did not intend, it did extend the gear for me - so it worked. A different problem was that the system prevented retraction of the gear (for obstacle clearance/hot/high takeoffs) unless you knew to lock the auto function off. I did a checkout in one in Florida decades back. The instructor took me into a tight runway, with a house right off the end, and it was hot. I was concerned about takeoff performance. So I locked the auto function off, so the gear would come up when I selected it, I wanted the better performance. The instructor asked what I was doing (I don't think he knew what the lockout was). I locked it out despite his uncertainty. He passed my ride.

I recall picking up a Turbo Arrow IV in Oklahoma to ferry it to Maine. I couldn't figure why the cruise speed was low. While looking around, I ducked my head and below the glare shield, otherwise not plainly visible to me, was a "gear unsafe" light. I had selected gear up at too low an airspeed after takeoff, so though the selector was up, the gear was not. 'Cycled the gear, it came up. Lesson learned.

I think that the auto extension system made for attractive RG insurance rates. But yes, pilots still managed to land gear up in them from time to time.
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by linecrew »

iflyforpie wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:55 pm The nose gear is aided by the wind..."
The Arrow's nose gear extends forward against the airflow. I'm not sure that the wind helps it. I think that big spring is what pulls it into the locked position.

Image
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iflyforpie
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by iflyforpie »

:o
linecrew wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:42 am
iflyforpie wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:55 pm The nose gear is aided by the wind..."
The Arrow's nose gear extends forward against the airflow. I'm not sure that the wind helps it. I think that big spring is what pulls it into the locked position.

Image
Yes you are right. I was confusing it with the Seminole.
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Big Pistons Forever
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

iflyforpie wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:05 am

Yes you are right. I was confusing it with the Seminole.
I think you mean the Seneca. It is the only Piper twin with a forward retracting nose gear. For what it is worth I had a battery master relay fail at night in a Seneca which killed the entire electrical system. To get the gear down I pulled the emergency gear knob which resulted in an almost immediate aerodynamic indication the gear was down. I did not a few good yaws to make sure it was locked and using my flash light I could see the nose wheel in the nacelle mirror, so I landed and taxied in.
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J31
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by J31 »

I suspect this Arrow had weak springs that could not overcome the air loads.
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by pelmet »

J31 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:47 pm I suspect this Arrow had weak springs that could not overcome the air loads.
It appears from the original report that none of the gear came down, which makes me think that there is more to it.
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by PilotDAR »

For my experience with several Arrows, the gear free falls with ease. I can't imagine sticking up any one, much less all three. As for the nose gear, it would be wise to be flying more slowly when doing a free fall extension, the less air load the better.
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by KISS_MY_TCAS »

The landing gear will freefall through a mechanically linked shuttle valve know as the "hoof valve". No electrics required for it to operate. The auto extend system was abolished by Piper after a dead stick landing when the gear kicked out and the airplane didn't make the airfield...they will not support it or sell you parts...or tell you anything about it. They force you into an SB to disable that feature. As the gear aren't mechanically linked, and the gear is held up by an electric driven hydraulic pump...something is odd here. The landing gear should have started to extend with the loss of electrics as there are no uplocks, and certainly should have freefallen if the emergency extension was selected
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J31
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by J31 »

pelmet wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:03 pm
J31 wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:47 pm I suspect this Arrow had weak springs that could not overcome the air loads.
It appears from the original report that none of the gear came down, which makes me think that there is more to it.
You are right. Very simple system so very odd that it ended upon its belly. Most likely unrelated but I have had issues with weak springs on the Piper single engine retractables.
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Re: I Always Wondered About the Arrow Manual Gear Extension

Post by youhavecontrol »

Interesting. I wonder if the hydraulic pressure was holding the gear up and was not able to be released. Not familiar with the Arrow, but I've done manual gear extensions in every type I've flown for practice or necessity. If it has a pressure release valve like the Seminole, perhaps it wasn't pulled out far enough or was disconnected?
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