Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

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PilotDAR
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by PilotDAR »

Why didn't you in this situation if I may ask?
Well, to be honest, I didn't think a mayday call would get me anything I didn't already have. I had a landing clearance, and the tower knew I was gliding in, so I jut focused on flying the plane. As otherwise referenced, landing on that runway is going to get you wet if you undershoot or overshoot. YTZ had not been my destination, I was just flying the downtown when things went silent. I'm sure that had the tower asked if I would like to declare an emergency, or say mayday, they would have asked, but less radio exchange supported the desired outcome, a safe forced landing, and my actually rolling far enough off on a taxiway that the plane did not tie up the runway.
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by PilotDAR »

At an estimated 200 ft aal, the engine suffered a rapid
and significant power loss. ........... it struck two houses and came to rest
between them.
Gee, that's a bit worrisome, if you're climbing through 200 feet, and there are houses under you already! That would extra certainly be a takeoff for which you want your EFATO plan very well rehearsed!
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

As it turned out I posted a link to the wrong AAIB report

Here is the correct one

https://assets.digital.cabinet-office.g ... _04-12.pdf

There is an aerial shot of the takeoff path and the crash site well to the left of the takeoff path on page 56. This was due to the aircraft being displaced to the left as part of the spin entry. From the picture an immediate pitch down when the engine failed and a glide straight ahead looks eminently survivable.

Talking on the radio instead of pitching down to the glide attitude directly lead to the fatal outcome.....
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Castorero
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by Castorero »

Solid advice all around... from some of the best.

Aviate, Navigate...blah, blah blah, Those oft repeated words have come to us at the expense of lives lost since the dawn of aviation, just like the..."learn from the mistakes of others because you will not live long enough to make them all yourself."
I might add my own mother's, " learn from the experience and wisdom of your betters, for they will ease your way through life."

Redandwhitebaron, if you are flying out of Toronto Island you should expect a dunking sooner or later, and planning for it means wearing a PDF at the very least.
Look, PilotDar wears an immersion suit in roughly similar circumstances!
He is The Man! No doubt about it, he always goes that extra mile in the interests of safety and common sense.
Pay particular attention to his humble pronouncements.

You only have to ditch once in cold water, away enough from shore or help, to save or loose your life.
I was "blessed" to have taken part in John Hayward's cold water immersion torture research in the early seventies at UVIC , to be able to tell you from experience and Science that if you Aviate into the water with enough energy to flare and ditch like a duck, you will survive the ditching, and that unless you are blessed with a substantial amount of personal insulation, and/or are wearing a PDF or better, the odds are that you will perish in 15-20 minutes this time of year.

Once you exit the airplane uninjured, without a PDF, you will expend a lot of energy and heat flailing around trying to stay afloat. If you are injured, you will drown.
A flotation device may keep your head above water long enough for you to wake up from a head injury...

You mentioned TC's review of seaplane deaths...
It is worth emphasizing that most of those drownings resulted from incapacitation from injury or becoming trapped in the cabin because all the seats in the Beaver came off the floor, ...imagine that scenario.

You sure as hell don't want to stall into the water while being polite to ATC, they cant save you, but you can do a lot to save yourself by flying Lloyd's airplane to its final destination.
Besides, all those people living along the Toronto shoreline will have called 911 for you, and posted your successful ditching on social media in real time!

A Better 2021 to us all...

Castorero
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Castorero wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:33 pm Solid advice all around... from some of the best.

Look, PilotDar wears an immersion suit in roughly similar circumstances!
He is The Man! No doubt about it, he always goes that extra mile in the interests of safety and common sense.
Pay particular attention to his humble pronouncements.
Of that, I have no doubt. I have re-evaluated more than one of my habits/thinking patterns, based on his advice.
You mentioned TC's review of seaplane deaths...
It is worth emphasizing that most of those drownings resulted from incapacitation from injury or becoming trapped in the cabin because all the seats in the Beaver came off the floor, ...imagine that scenario.
I think most of the drownings were actually due to being trapped in the aircraft, but I'd have to look it up again. My major point was that the impact itself is usually not the cause of death.
A Better 2021 to us all...

Castorero
In any case, the advice here has removed any doubt I had that a radio call should take priority in some rare circumstances - it shouldn't. Sorry if I came off as argumentative, or worse, stupid, but there was some doubt in mind and I needed to have that doubt challenged. Thank you all.
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

PilotDAR wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:30 am But if you call "mayday", you begin a process where the tower will prioritize communication with you, and further distract you from what you should be doing first. The airplane is decelerating, and you're not really entering a good glide, while you fiddle knobs. The plane is not using words to tell you how to fly it safely next, but the controller will be using words to request you divert your attention to providing more information. Are you prepared to completely ignore repeated questions over the radio, to correctly fly a silent gliding plane? Sometimes you have to say "stop talking" to a passenger so you can concentrate, fair enough. Best then to not ask the controller to start talking to you, until you have things in hand. Once you have assured control, and a good glide, by all means, make a radio call.
I had not considered that. I once again have been proven wrong.

But just today I made a very simple call. I was already tuned to tower. I wasn't happy with a gusty crosswind approach, and decided to go around. After I raised flaps and throttled forward, I made a quick "FABC going around" call. It wasn't necessary, as we already had the option, but that's not the point. In my mind, it was a courtesy call. I don't think that radio call distracted me (for the record, my instructor disagrees with that assessment). I was quite able to ignore other chatter until I was safely flying; at least, no less able to ignore irrevelant chatter than I was beforehand.

It was a... harrowing approach (do not forget I am a student pilot), with a north wind blowing over the city and wreaking havoc over the harbour. But here's the rub: if I can do that, while still maintaining control of the aircraft and executing a missed approach, then I fail to understand how I cannot also do that immediately following an engine failure.

Your logic is almost irrefutable, Dar, but I don't understand how a two second plea for assistance could impart more risk than it removes.
Are you prepared to completely ignore repeated questions over the radio, to correctly fly a silent gliding plane?
Yes - I am.
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Last edited by RedAndWhiteBaron on Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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rookiepilot
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by rookiepilot »

I agree with your instructor.

Start your go around, configure your aircraft, trim for your climb, everything's good, then make your call.

There's no particular rush.

It's habits. You might be fine now, but once training for your multi Ifr under the hood, performing a go around at minimums, your focus needs to be all on your flying until the aircraft is stable in the climb.
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:25 pm I agree with your instructor.

Start your go around, configure your aircraft, trim for your climb, everything's good, then make your call.
To be fair to me now, that happens very quickly in a trainer.
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PilotDAR
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by PilotDAR »

.....everything's good, then make your call.

To be fair to me now, that happens very quickly in a trainer.
The "everything's good" part is better handled without rushing to confirm it or assume it's okay. Confirming everything's good should take enough time and focus that you do think that you're a bit late to call ATC, when you're done confirming okay.
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Re: Get safe aircraft control before talking to ATC

Post by valleyboy »

It is amazing how many times I have had to tell someone to Fly-T-F-Aircraft - this is the first rule and supersedes anything else until such time, if any time left, to do the "house keeping"

For a go around it's the same as a take-off climb to your safety altitude, manage power and config and lastly talk to the tower. Even if the tower instructs you to go around, depending on position and altitude you don't need to answer them, you have confirmed the instruction by your action, talk to them, again, after your onboard house keeping. They are watching you. Like a transponder you don't need to verbally acknowledge an ident instruction, you do that by pushing the button. Like most things, time management is your friend.

Apply this to your original scenario and you keep a normal flow that you have done on every departure and flight to landing.
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