Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

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rookiepilot
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by rookiepilot »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:47 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:50 pm
TeePeeCreeper wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:19 pm I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...
Taxiing an experimental Super STOL in a 25 knot crosswind. If one insists on making such a decision, a wingwalker or two can prevent an incident.
*yawn*

Just had to add your two cents in didn’t you?
FFS, why do you feel the need to diminish another poster’s real world experiences reiterated for other readers?!?

(How many hours do you have on type since you obviously seem to know more about this fairly rare type of flying contraption than I do!?!?)

I’d like to add that this was during an insurance check out with a guy whom was trained and is a demo pilot for the manufacturing company that makes the kit!

Guess I’ll just have to add a second Wx check to my “killer item checklist” right Pelmet?!?

TPC
Yep.

If TSB isn't your speed Pelmet, I did find these openings at the NTSB to fully apply your interest:

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?a=TB00
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

TeePeeCreeper wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 10:47 pm
pelmet wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:50 pm
TeePeeCreeper wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 8:19 pm I’ve only ground looped once... slow taxing speed... wasn’t quick enough with the rudder/brake. (Full aileron deflection too!) Nothing damaged but it was a humbling experience in an experimental aircraft (Super STOL) while taxing in a 25 knot cross wind in order to get to the active where the wind was right down the pipe...
Taxiing an experimental Super STOL in a 25 knot crosswind. If one insists on making such a decision, a wingwalker or two can prevent an incident.
Just had to add your two cents in didn’t you?
FFS, why do you feel the need to diminish another poster’s real world experiences reiterated for other readers?!?

(How many hours do you have on type since you obviously seem to know more about this fairly rare type of flying contraption than I do!?!?)

I’d like to add that this was during an insurance check out with a guy whom was trained and is a demo pilot for the manufacturing company that makes the kit!

Guess I’ll just have to add a second Wx check to my “killer item checklist” right Pelmet?!?
Just giving a good suggestion on how one might have been able to prevent and incident/near damaging event. Yes, I have been involved with wingwalking a taildragger in a good crosswind when it was necessary to change hangars.

Just some good advice for those insisting on doing an insurance checkout on an aircraft like that, with ground ops in 25 knot crosswinds(and gusting higher no doubt).
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Last edited by pelmet on Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

rookiepilot wrote: Wed May 05, 2021 9:11 am If TSB isn't your speed Pelmet, I did find these openings at the NTSB to fully apply your interest:

https://www.usajobs.gov/Search?a=TB00
When have I expressed interest in a pipeline(except for my great move in buying Enbridge stock a few months ago). 7.5% dividend and a big capital gain.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-FMVK, a privately registered Stinson 108 aircraft was landing at Edenvale Airport (CNV8) after a
flight from Buttonville (CYKZ), Ontario. During the landing a gust of wing lifted the wing, as the pilot
applied engine power for a go-around the aircraft veered to the left and went off runway 13, rolled
into uneven ground and flipped over. The pilot was not injured but the aircraft was substantially
damaged. The wind was reported from 180 degrees magnetic at 14 knots.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by AirFrame »

pelmet wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:13 pmAnother bad idea is brake application while the tailwheel is still airborne on a wheel landing. Perhaps it can be useful in certain rare situations by certain skilled pilots but I tried it once to make a taxiway and fortunately got away scratch-free with a good lesson.
And yet this is likely aircraft dependent as well... I regularly apply brakes with the tail up on a wheel landing in the RV-6. I find with that technique I can more consistently get the shortest landing distance when I need it.

I've only semi-groundlooped once, on an excessively hot day and I was tired and in a hurry to get back to the hangar and some shade. I was a little fast on landing and still wanted to make my turnoff. I started to turn towards the taxiway where I usually do and immediately realized I was still to fast for that and tried to correct, but by that point I was *just* beyond the point of recovery. All I could do was hold on for the ride and do my best to widen the turn (thankfully there are laaaaarge runways at my home airport). I held opposite controls, and as the turn sped up fed in more brake to both wheels and ended up doing a "Tokyo Drift" around to a stop... all three wheels stayed on the ground but the mains were sliding sideways at the end. Still on the runway but facing mostly up the taxiway.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

AirFrame wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 8:37 am
pelmet wrote: Tue May 04, 2021 12:13 pmAnother bad idea is brake application while the tailwheel is still airborne on a wheel landing. Perhaps it can be useful in certain rare situations by certain skilled pilots but I tried it once to make a taxiway and fortunately got away scratch-free with a good lesson.
And yet this is likely aircraft dependent as well... I regularly apply brakes with the tail up on a wheel landing in the RV-6. I find with that technique I can more consistently get the shortest landing distance when I need it.

I've only semi-groundlooped once, on an excessively hot day and I was tired and in a hurry to get back to the hangar and some shade. I was a little fast on landing and still wanted to make my turnoff. I started to turn towards the taxiway where I usually do and immediately realized I was still to fast for that and tried to correct, but by that point I was *just* beyond the point of recovery. All I could do was hold on for the ride and do my best to widen the turn (thankfully there are laaaaarge runways at my home airport). I held opposite controls, and as the turn sped up fed in more brake to both wheels and ended up doing a "Tokyo Drift" around to a stop... all three wheels stayed on the ground but the mains were sliding sideways at the end. Still on the runway but facing mostly up the taxiway.
That would make you one of the “skilled pilots” I was referring to.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by AirFrame »

pelmet wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:17 pmThat would make you one of the “skilled pilots” I was referring to.
I suppose that's possible, but I really don't think so... Just over 700 hours total at this point, and while ~650 of them are tailwheel, and ~400 of them have been in the -6, I've been doing this from the beginning. It's just a balancing act, braking force vs. downforce available from the elevator. When you run out of elevator, stop braking. Maybe people in these incidents forget that and can't get off the brakes fast enough? Or have significantly less prop clearance than I do?
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

AirFrame wrote: Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:37 am
pelmet wrote: Sat Jul 17, 2021 9:17 pmThat would make you one of the “skilled pilots” I was referring to.
I suppose that's possible, but I really don't think so... Just over 700 hours total at this point, and while ~650 of them are tailwheel, and ~400 of them have been in the -6, I've been doing this from the beginning. It's just a balancing act, braking force vs. downforce available from the elevator. When you run out of elevator, stop braking. Maybe people in these incidents forget that and can't get off the brakes fast enough? Or have significantly less prop clearance than I do?
Tailwheel hours paint only a part of the picture in terms of experience. Tailwheel takeoffs and landings are what have a lot of meaning. 650 hours should equate to plenty of experience. The 250 hours may have been multiple landings and takeoffs per hour.

Anyways...there are so many different versions out there and perhaps the RV-6 or your RV-6 does well when brake are applied with the tail still in the air. But I would caution anybody considering this to remember that there can be significant variations in the aircraft even from model to model of the same type, especially with non-certified aircraft. You mention prop clearance but there can be different lengths of prop on the same type. Different brake type or even adjustments can make a huge difference.

I flew a type that required enough force on the brakes from me during run-up(to prevent forward movement) that my legs were very tired after the run-up was complete. Yet the president of the type club that I talked to on the phone several times repeatedly told me about how grabby the brakes are on that type and about an incident where one aircraft flipped over while taxiing due to sudden brake application(I was able to confirm that incident). Faulty brakes can even grab at an inopportune moment.

Bottom line, perhaps brake can be safely applied on some taildraggers while the tail is airborne but you had better be extremely cautious about it and don't be surprised if you do get a surprise, for some unusual reason.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by JVader »

pelmet wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:11 pm C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.
Hey I’m famous! That was my plane, I had a runway excursion and the right main collapsed, which in turn ate my new prop. Always remember there’s a lot more to these accidents than can be captured in a small paragraph
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

JVader wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:09 pm
pelmet wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:11 pm C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.
Hey I’m famous! That was my plane, I had a runway excursion and the right main collapsed, which in turn ate my new prop. Always remember there’s a lot more to these accidents than can be captured in a small paragraph
Sorry to hear about your occurrence. It would be interesting to know if you felt the TSB included all the pertinent information that was provided to them.

I know that at least one investigator reads these threads. If the information they are providing to the public is not including important items, especially info that could be useful in preventing future occurrences, perhaps they could be encouraged to provide more details.

The report certainly provides no information on the reason the aircraft ‘veered’, leaving the reader with little to learn from this.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by JVader »

pelmet wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:44 pm
JVader wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:09 pm
pelmet wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 8:11 pm C-FKTZ, a privately registered Piper PA-22-160, was conducting a flight from Villeneuve airport
(CZVL), AB to Fort McMurray airport (CYMM), AB with one pilot and one passenger onboard.
While landing on Runway 26, the aircraft veered sharply to right off the centerline and nosed over
coming to rest in the grass near Taxiway Golf causing substantial damage to the propeller and
main landing gear. There were no reported injuries.
Hey I’m famous! That was my plane, I had a runway excursion and the right main collapsed, which in turn ate my new prop. Always remember there’s a lot more to these accidents than can be captured in a small paragraph
Sorry to hear about your occurrence. It would be interesting to know if you felt the TSB included all the pertinent information that was provided to them.

I know that at least one investigator reads these threads. If the information they are providing to the public is not including important items, especially info that could be useful in preventing future occurrences, perhaps they could be encouraged to provide more details.

The report certainly provides no information on the reason the aircraft ‘veered’, leaving the reader with little to learn from this.
18018g26 landing rwy 26, +35C on landing, was a big crosswind for me and I didn’t bring my A game. Tried to go around but didn’t have the performance and I was light on the controls trying to avoid a ground loop. Decided to roll it out in the infield when the right main collapsed. The pacer is a squirrely bird, and it caught me on a day where I didn’t bring my best. I’ll rebuild and get back in the air.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by valleyboy »

The fire breathing tail draggers, wonder why it's called conventional gear. It would be interesting if we had stats to compare landing/Takeoff ground incidents between trike and tail wheel. Parameters from flair on landing to stable climb on departure. It might be an eye opener.

I think the reason why the tail wheeled has become such an issue is that with trike gear pilots basically stop flying them on touch down and relax while a tail dragger requires you to fly the aircraft until fully stopped.

When you learn to fly on conventional gear and fly every day on that type it becomes second nature. Ground loops turn into a tool and not by mistake. I can say that I have never accidentally ground looped an aircraft but have done it many times on purpose due to various mechanical failures, all low speed and controlled, especially with a twin engine aircraft. The outcome was always stopping 180 degrees to initial track.

Pretty simple philosophy which should hold true for all aircraft. "fly the F'n aeroplane" - we should never loose sight of the basics.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by AirFrame »

pelmet wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:44 pmSorry to hear about your occurrence. It would be interesting to know if you felt the TSB included all the pertinent information that was provided to them.
This looks like the narrative from a CADOR, which isn't written by the TSB. The TSB may feed something back in to the CADOR later on, but initially the report generally comes from NavCan. And no, they don't generally include all of the information.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by Dias »

From the title I thought this was going to be another Northstar BT-67 accident thread.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

JVader wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:09 pm 18018g26 landing rwy 26, +35C on landing, was a big crosswind for me and I didn’t bring my A game. Tried to go around but didn’t have the performance and I was light on the controls trying to avoid a ground loop. Decided to roll it out in the infield when the right main collapsed. The pacer is a squirrely bird, and it caught me on a day where I didn’t bring my best. I’ll rebuild and get back in the air.
Gusting to 26 knots as a direct crosswind in a squirrely taildragger? Sounds like a decision-making problem not a skill problem. I would have been looking for alternatives or not departing in the first place to be honest.

Here is another one.....

C-FYLY, a privately registered Piper PA-12 Super Cruiser, was conducting a recreational flight
from Pitt Meadows (CYPK), BC to Hope (CYHE), BC with the pilot and 2 passengers on board.
During the take-off roll, the aircraft began to veer to the right. The pilot attempted to correct the turn
but the aircraft continued off the right side of the paved runway into the grass. The pilot attempted
to stop the aircraft and, after it crossed a ditch, the landing gear collapsed and the propeller struck
the ground. The pilot and passengers egressed from the aircraft and waited by the aircraft for
assistance. There were no injuries to the pilot or passengers. The aircraft was taken to a maintenance
facility where the extent of the damage will be assessed.
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Last edited by pelmet on Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

The privately registered Cessna 180K, C-GYXX, was departing Drumheller (CEG4), AB regional
airport for a flight to Cooking Lake (CEZ3), AB. During the take-off roll, when the tail came up,
control was lost and the aircraft performed a ground loop, coming to rest inverted on the edge of
the runway. The two occupants were uninjured and able to exit the aircraft without assistance.
There was no fire and the ELT did not broadcast and was switched to the off position.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by Posthumane »

I also tend to apply some braking in my aircraft before the tail is on the ground. The tailwheel is so small and prone to shimmy that I it really doesn't like touching down at high speed, so I try to keep it up as long as possible (giggidy). As airframe said, it's a question of balancing the braking force with the elevator, and not letting the nose go down any further than the wheel landing attitude. Mind you, this is one of these aircraft where your legs are tired after holding the brakes for a run-up.
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

I wonder if he had the PPonk landing gear attachment mod. It can reduce landing gear failures during groundloops....

"C-FFJE, a privately registered Cessna 170B was conducting a flight from Fort St. John/ North
Peace Regional (CYXJ), BC on Runway 12 bound for Fort Nelson/ Northern Rockies Regional
(CYYE), BC. The take off was aborted during the take-off roll due to the crosswind. As the aircraft
was coming to a stop the left landing gear collapsed and the aircraft came to rest on the left wing
tip. There was a small fuel spill that was contained but there was no post incident fire. There were
no injuries."
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Re: Taildragger Noseover/Groundloop Thread

Post by pelmet »

I believe the Yukon can be tailwheel or tricycle gear.

"C-GTNZ, an Amateur-built amphibious Murphy Yukon, landed at Chilliwack (CYCW), BC. The
airplane exited the runway on the right side into the grass when the left main wheel brake failed.
The Airport Manager responded and arranged for the aircraft to be towed to the apron.
It was determined that the left side brake pads separated because they were excessively worn
which allowed the brake caliper piston to move out of its position and for brake fluid to leak onto
the disk."
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