Northwestern Air Lease Turbine Otter Flips Over

[pelmet]

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/five-people-s ... 58379.html

[porcsord]

"Incident"

[pelmet]

Sad to see another turbine amphib landing on water with the gear down in the last month. Triple check it.......

C-FLLL, a Northwestern Air Lease Ltd. amphibious float equipped de Havilland DHC-3T (Turbine
Otter) was conducting a VFR flight from Ft. Smith (CYSM), NT to a lake 17 nm ENE of CYSM with
1 pilot and 4 passengers on board. The aircraft touched down on the lake with the landing gear in
the down position. The aircraft subsequently nosed over and came to rest almost inverted on the
lake. The pilot egressed out the left cockpit door and swam to the rear of the aircraft where the 4
passengers were waiting with the emergency exit open. 1 passenger entered the water and shortly
after a boat came to gather everyone up. The pilot sustained a minor injury and the passengers
were uninjured. The 406 MHz ELT transmitted.

viewtopick.php?p=1153409#p1153409

[TailwheelPilot]

An Air Tunilik Caravan did the same thing on July 11, apparently.

https://aviation-safety.net/database/re ... 20210711-0

[pelmet]

And this one too just the other day.........

C-FGPC, a privately registered Cessna 185F on amphibious floats, departed Prince George
International Airport (CYXS), BC to Mackenzie (CYZY), BC with 2 persons on board. The flight
was occurring under special VFR with forest fire smoke in the area limiting the visibility to 2 1/4 sm.
Upon departure, the visibility deteriorated as the aircraft climbed. CYXS ATC asked the pilot to
deviate their heading to accommodate inbound traffic. The deviation placed the aircraft in an area
with even less visibility so the pilot elected to descend and follow the Fraser River northbound. As
the river became more difficult to follow, the pilot elected to land on it. The landing gear had not
been retracted after take off and upon touchdown the aircraft flipped over. Both occupants
managed to egress the overturned aircraft and climb onto one of the floats while waiting for rescue.
The pilot received minor injuries and the passenger received serious injuries. The aircraft was
substantially damaged.


A Caravan, Otter and C185 in a month. But hey.....post something about checking your killer items after the checklist is complete but before taking off or landing and this is what you get from those who know better.......

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=147403&p=1158948& ... r#p1158948

viewtopic.php?p=1152925#p1152925

viewtopic.php?p=1103044#p1103044

viewtopic.php?p=1103041#p1103041

Oh well, no deaths and only a few million in insurance value that we will all pay for.

[Dry Guy]

It's amazing to me that it's even possible to insure amphibious aircraft still.

[linecrew]

A 185 amphib landed on a runway gear up this weekend in Southern Ontario as well so it's not just an issue with wheels down water flips.

[rookiepilot]

But hey.....post something about checking your killer items after the checklist is complete but before taking off or landing and this is what you get from those who know better.......

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=147403&p=1158948& ... r#p1158948

viewtopic.php?p=1152925#p1152925

viewtopic.php?p=1103044#p1103044

viewtopic.php?p=1103041#p1103041

Oh well, no deaths and only a few million in insurance value that we will all pay for.

Seems you want to pick an argument. With someone. Again.

“Ignore”

[pelmet]

But hey.....post something about checking your killer items after the checklist is complete but before taking off or landing and this is what you get from those who know better.......

viewtopic.php?f=118&t=147403&p=1158948& ... r#p1158948

viewtopic.php?p=1152925#p1152925

viewtopic.php?p=1103044#p1103044

viewtopic.php?p=1103041#p1103041

Oh well, no deaths and only a few million in insurance value that we will all pay for.

Seems you want to pick an argument. With someone. Again.

“Ignore”

No....just sick and tired of accidents like these which can be prevented by simple solutions that I have, yet get mocked. Meanwhile......

"C-GRUN, a privately registered Cessna 185F on amphibious floats, was conducting a VFR flight
from Kamloops (CYKA), BC to Vanderhoof (CAU4), BC with only the pilot on board. The pilot
departed from Runway 27 at CYKA at approximately 0800 PDT and the visibility, from the weather
observation, was 3 statute miles (SM). Approximately 6 miles west of CYKA, visibility became
worse and the pilot descended seeking better conditions. The visibility was still very poor so the
pilot decided to do a precautionary landing straight ahead on Kamloops Lake. The aircraft touched
down on the lake with the landing gear in the down position. The aircraft subsequently nosed over
and came to rest inverted on the lake. The pilot egressed out the window of the left cockpit door
and climbed up onto the float. A passing train acknowledged that they had seen the pilot and a
train crew came later in the morning and, after the pilot swam to shore (the pilot was not wearing a
PFD), transported him to the town of Savona. The pilot sustained minor injuries and no signal was
received from the 406 MHz Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT).

The aircraft was subsequently recovered and is awaiting a maintenance estimate. During the
recovery, a signal from the ELT was received by the Canadian Mission Control Centre."

There seems to be a certain reality in floatplane ops based on my limited but increasing experience. Checklists don't get used much or only for certain parts of the flight such as up to takeoff. That has included myself. But my policy is, if ever operating an amphibious aircraft, the checklist gets used religiously for all phases of operation from before start to before touchdown with special thinking about gear position before landing is done. Slack checklist use on regular floats equals occasional misplaced water rudder position. On amphibious aircraft, it can be a sudden flip-over, of which I have posted about four separate incidents this summer alone.

Looks like this most recent accident is quite similar to the one I posted about earlier in this thread. Flying from airport A to airport B in BC and diverting to a water landing due to heavy smoke and then forgetting the gear position.

[PilotDAR]

Sure, checklist use would be great, I would never suggest otherwise.

However, landing gear position, on any airplane with changeable landing gear position, needs a much more basic pilot "think action" than reaching for a checklist (Which use can still be interrupted). Amphibians are the most recurring example of getting this wrong, but they are not the only. Wheel skis, or even purposefully landing a regular RG in the water or onto rough ground requires a mental step back and overview by the pilot, to assure the gear is where it's intended. "Gear down" for landing wheel skis into snow? No, think about what you're doing! "Wheels up for landing into snow". is the complete statement the pilot should be making.

I make a mental break in my piloting (most commonly on downwind) where I step out of the flow of just flying, to confirm the plan for the landing. Once I have the plan, I speak it out loud twice, while I look at the landing gear position. The mental break I impose is me doing the flight, rather than the flight doing me. If things are so intense that I can't afford that 15 second mental break from piloting, wow, I'm already in big trouble, and at a minimum, a go around would be a good idea, while I slow things down, and sort them out.

As an aside, A straight ahead landing on Kamloops Lake might not be the best idea in some wind conditions, that lake can get rough. I like to overfly the intended landing site (and get that downwind in), just to take the time, and have a look. So if you're landing straight ahead onto the water urgently, you need to recognize that you've already backed yourself into a corner, and that should be a warning sign of a poor situation developing. All the red flags should pop up, and a bigger step back to review the whole situation.

It is easy to get into a slick rhythm while flying something familiar, and that's what's going to get you, the routine. You can seem like you've got everything in hand, and your hands are gliding from control to control in harmony with the plane. Yeah, that''s when you're going to forget something! If you're flying something new, you're usually paying a lot more attention. So when you're in the groove with the plane, you've got yourself so well set, that you have the 15 seconds to spare to break the mental flow, look down upon yourself, and ask yourself where you're landing, and where the gear is. Then confirm the break in the routine by speaking it aloud, and waking yourself up. It'll be memorable! (in a good way)!

When I trained amphibian pilots, I'd give them one reminder, but on the second oversight, when they were short final, and had not spoken the landing gear position correctly, I'd wait until late final, and I'd call a go around, with some (appropriate) urgency, without saying way, until the go around was underway - just to make it memorable!

Regardless of whatever warning system the plane might have, the pilot looking and speaking the hear position is the only sure thing. When some of those warning systems fail, they fail to silence - and silence is not a warning (unless it's coming from your wife). So is weird that I would say out loud, while flying the 182RG, "wheels are down for landing on land"? I think not, 'cause it means I would also say "wheels are up for ditching" if that was what I intended to do with it.

I can't say that I'll never get the gear wrong, and if I ever do, I'll be roasted for it! So all I can do is my best to avoid that situation with good, and very simple discipline.

[co-joe]

Let's just quote Charlie Hotel Uniform Charlie Kilo here; 'Where am I landing, and where are my wheels"? every single landing. (Why is his name censored?)

[J31]

I fully endorse every suggestion in this thread.

Just making sure the wheel gear is retracted on every takeoff will remove all risk of landing on water with the wheels down.

Of course you MUST also confirm the wheel gear is up before every water landing or it could be fatal. You MUST also make sure the wheel gear is down and locked for landing on the runway or it will be very embarrassing, costly, and potentially flip inverted. Always check that the wheel gear configuration is appropriate for the surface......several times.

An emergency landing on a surface that is not firm enough to support the wheels is best done with the wheel gear retracted.

Landing on a surface that is not firm enough to support the wheels, with the wheel gear down, will most likely result in flipping inverted and could potential be fatal.

[fish4life]

That’s what I can’t understand is why guys don’t fly amphibs like a regular retractable gear aircraft and retract the gear after every take off

[Blowin' In The Wind]

That’s what I can’t understand is why guys don’t fly amphibs like a regular retractable gear aircraft and retract the gear after every take off

We operate like this. And if I had to make an unplanned off-airport landing, I’d prefer to do it with the gear up anyways. We use a gear retraction call after liftoff, and always confirm gear position multiple times prior to every landing on any surface, regardless if it feels tedious or not.

[185_guy]

That’s what I can’t understand is why guys don’t fly amphibs like a regular retractable gear aircraft and retract the gear after every take off

I wonder this too…..
Then you hear someone saying they wait to retract the gear until the usable runway ahead of them is ‘unusable’ in case of an engine failure and straight ahead landing…. In a good preforming aircraft they could 3-400’ up by that point, now looking for traffic or making a turn away. Then forget.
(I’m referring to single engine amphibs)
Positive rate, gear up every time, IMHO.

[Blowin' In The Wind]

That’s what I can’t understand is why guys don’t fly amphibs like a regular retractable gear aircraft and retract the gear after every take off

I wonder this too…..
Then you hear someone saying they wait to retract the gear until the usable runway ahead of them is ‘unusable’ in case of an engine failure and straight ahead landing…. In a good preforming aircraft they could 3-400’ up by that point, now looking for traffic or making a turn away. Then forget.
(I’m referring to single engine amphibs)
Positive rate, gear up every time, IMHO.

+1

[tractor driver]

That’s the way we do it. ( retract every departure). In addition to gear check every landing/ circuit/ scoop, and a group radio call at the 1st water landing, and end of the fuel cycle back at the airport.
Doesn’t feel excessive at all, and so far so good.
G

[PilotDAR]

Retract every time after takeoff is okay in the summer. When flying amphibs in the winter, when I'm pretty certain that I won't be making a water landing anyway, I'll generally leave them down. (If I have to forced land on the snow, then I'll retract). Twice I've have malfunctions I attribute to the cold at altitude, both times having to land one side down, the other side up.

Though different pilots and operators find ways of handing this situation, the only one certain way is the manual visual check and call out, after following a procedure which best suits the circumstances. And remember, this whole topic applies more broadly than amphibians, it applies to any retractable.

[tractor driver]

Good point regarding winter operations. We don’t do much of that in the firefighting world. Had the water rudders freeze up countless times in previous cold weather straight float operations, makes sense consideration should be given to the amphibious gear.