Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

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pelmet
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Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by pelmet »

For ease of a future search, I decided to start a new thread with a more appropriate title for this incident(previous was Things That Go Bump In The Night).

This was the only post worth transferring......
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Last edited by pelmet on Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
pelmet
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by pelmet »

Seems like there might be a reason to return. Hydraulic problems after ATC reports the indications of a tailstrike......

Registration: C-GUAJ Operator: CARGOJET AIRWAYS LTD.
Manufacturer: BOEING Operator Type: COMMERCIAL
Model: 767-300 CARS Sub Part: 705 - AIRLINER
Injuries: Fatal: 0 Minor: 0
Serious: 0 None: 2
Unknown: 0

Occurrence Summary:
C-GUAJ, a Cargo jet Airways 767-300, was conducting flight CJT1328 between New Tokyo Intl.
(RJAA) Japan and Vancouver Intl. (CYVR) BC. After take off, the EICAS (Engine-indicating and
crew-alerting system) message "R TAIL HYD VAL" in amber appeared. RJAA Tower reported
smoke from the tail section on rotation before switching the flight crew to departure frequency. After
flaps retraction flight crew requested to level off at 10000 feet (cleared altitude was 23000 feet),
then reached QRH which reads "R TAIL FLT CONTROL SHUTOFF SWITCH MUST BE ON FOR
FLIGHT". Flight Control Shutoff Valves on P61 panel indicated R TAIL SHUTOFF VALVE "ON" in
white as well as "OFF" in amber. The switch is guarded and says "GND USE ONLY". Flight crew
then contacted Maintenance control via Sat phone. Maintenance suggestion was to do nothing
with the shutoff valve. Other systems which could have been affected if the tail strike has occurred,
such as hydraulics and cabin pressure looked normal. Flight crew also concluded, after discussion
with maintenance, that the lack of the ''TAIL STRIKE EICAS'' message made the flight safe to
destination . Before landing in YVR and after extending the gears, EICAS message "TAILSKID" in
amber appeared. QRH actions were performed and uneventful landing was completed. Post-flight
inspection by the Maintenance crew revealed the orange paint on the tail skid was partially
removed but the indication on the strut showed no sign of compression. Aircraft was returned to
service with tail skid repair deferred on MEL (Minimum equipment list).
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FICU
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by FICU »

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pelmet
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by pelmet »

FICU wrote: Tue Sep 07, 2021 8:58 am https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5thzdsa5MxA
Too fast rotation. All you need is three degrees per second up to 15 degrees. That takes 5 seconds and the aircraft will be airborne by the time 15 degrees is reached. It took three seconds for this aircraft to scrape the tail which is a 5°/second rotation, more than 50% too fast.
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SeawingsUAE
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by SeawingsUAE »

Yup
3 degrees per second is the magic number. It produces a nice steady rotation.
In a previous life as a wide body training Capt. I would guard the yoke column (low down) as we approached 12-13 degrees, but of course as we had thoroughly discussed the slow and steady rotation it wasn’t an issue 99 times out of a 100.
That rotation almost looked like the video was sped up! It’s an easy one for the tea and biscuits brigade to diagnose.
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linecrew
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by linecrew »

I've heard the 3°/sec rule many times before but how do you do that? What technique is used to do this properly? I don't fly anything large enough that it needs to be flown like that but I've always been curious.
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SeawingsUAE
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by SeawingsUAE »

I've heard the 3°/sec rule many times before but how do you do that? What technique is used to do this properly? I don't fly anything large enough that it needs to be flown like that but I've always been curious.

The correct rotation technique is taught initially in the simulator, and reinforced in line training. It quickly becomes second nature to sense the feeling of a correct rotation, backed up visually by observing the rotation on the ADI.
It is easily observed. Slow and steady back pressure at the “correct” Vr will automatically ensure correct rotation.
Most if not all tail strikes are the result one of two factors:
1: incorrect (rapid) rotation as observed in the video
2: incorrect V speeds for the weight, usually as a result of incorrect ZFW inputs and an attempt to rotate well below actual Vr for the weight.
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pelmet
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by pelmet »

It is true that one may not be at exactly 3°/second. But it is just nice a smooth and slow.....but not too slow as it may result in a longer takeoff roll, which is not good when runway length is close to the limiting factor. Although I did fly one long type where some pilots did a momentary hesitation around 10 degrees as what was felt to be a precaution, it actually wasn't necessary. The official way can vary, as one type I flew was much shorter and originally had a 6°/second rotation rate but that was changed down to 3°. And another long body type had a 2.5° rotation rate reduced to 2° if there had been an engine failure.
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fish4life
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by fish4life »

I don’t care that they hit the tail shit happens what’s more concerning is they hit the tail had an issue and took it across the ocean
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by co-joe »

fish4life wrote: Wed Sep 08, 2021 6:43 pm I don’t care that they hit the tail shit happens what’s more concerning is they hit the tail had an issue and took it across the ocean
+1 man, taking a potentially damaged airframe to max diff sounds like a poor decision to me. I'm sure the overweight landing required in turning around would have been a major concern. Was the crew informed of the tailstrike? Did they put 2 and 2 together with that R TAIL HYD VAL annunciator?
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Mick G
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by Mick G »

Anybody know if she is back in service? I believe I flew this girl in a past life.
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linecrew
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Re: Cargojet 767 Tailstrike in Tokyo

Post by linecrew »

Mick G wrote: Thu Nov 04, 2021 6:14 am Anybody know if she is back in service? I believe I flew this girl in a past life.
Seems like it:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/c-guaj
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