407 Landing

[pdw]

Yes that’s true. You can come across failed readings. This area coverage of them seems to represent fairly well.

IMARKH8 49.5F. 97RH
IMARKH20. 46.9F. 98RH
MARKHAM13 48.0F. 94RH

IONTARIO722 48.2F 93RH
(Markham Station)

Deerbrook Trail. 48.0 F 89RH
Bayview Hill
(IRICHM125). 47.3F. 93RH

[CpnCrunch]

1400Z METAR at CYTZ, about 10 miles away was :

27/10/2021 14:00-> METAR CYTZ 271400Z AUTO 01008KT 340V040 9SM FEW160 12/07 A3001 RMK SLP164=

That makes the relative humidity a very reasonable 70%. I was in the (dry, fabulously clear) air about five miles away at the same time, and there was no hint of icing, and, I understand he was climbing out after takeoff, with the throttle wide open, so not a lot of tendency for icing there.

I think it was variable tailwinds on final, personally.

Have you ever had carb icing? The only time I've ever had it has been at full throttle on the climbout. At full throttle there is much more greater rate of accumulation of icing (if it is within the icing range), and at takeoff the engine (carb) is cooler. At lower throttles you do have a higher temperature drop, but less moisture in total accumulating. And at low power settings (except on a Cherokee) you generally have carb heat on.

In this case you can see from the pic that there are few clouds at a few thousand feet, and that is prime territory for carb icing near the water. Admittedly in a Cherokee it is less susceptible to icing due to engine design.

[pdw]

Well, that’s an incident. He’s basically barred from any job that asks if you’ve ever had an incident or an accident. /s

Is the TSB/TC gonna investigate? Or too small for them?

Captain’s right that could be a concern. But it seems like “TSB/TC” has the ability to quickly assess and act where more attention is needed. Why make it all doom and gloom if it’s a happy occasion (our “miracle on the Hudson”).

So for example, in case departure carbice confirmed the pilot’s great fortune at landing safely can become an opportunity for poster child to advocate renewed focus such as on cooling moisture (washer effect) near lakes in fall.

[cncpc]

No, captain's not right.

[goldeneagle]

Who let Pretty Dumb Wordsalad back?

[CpnCrunch]

Maybe look up what /s means people.

[alkaseltzer]

Update?

[pelmet]

"Occurrence Summary:
C-GNBP, a Piper PA-28-151 registered to the Caribbean Flying Club Inc., was on a flight from
Toronto Buttonville (CYKZ), ON, to Grimsby Air Park (CNZ8), ON, with two pilots on board. The
flight departed runway 33, turned left, and began flying southbound at 2000' ASL. The pilot
switched from the right to the left fuel tank; a few seconds later the engine began to sputter and
lose power, becoming unresponsive to throttle inputs. The pilot identified highway 407 as the best
available landing site, and declared MAYDAY with a Toronto Terminal controller, stating his
intentions to land on the highway. At 1047 EDT, the airplane landed on the eastbound lanes of the
highway, there were no injuries and the aircraft was undamaged.

Maintenance inspection has not revealed any mechanical explanation for the event, and there was
sufficient fuel remaining in each tank after the emergency landing."

[pelmet]

"Occurrence Summary:
C-GNBP, a Piper PA-28-151 registered to the Caribbean Flying Club Inc., was on a flight from
Toronto Buttonville (CYKZ), ON, to Grimsby Air Park (CNZ8), ON, with two pilots on board. The
flight departed runway 33, turned left, and began flying southbound at 2000' ASL. The pilot
switched from the right to the left fuel tank; a few seconds later the engine began to sputter and
lose power, becoming unresponsive to throttle inputs. The pilot identified highway 407 as the best
available landing site, and declared MAYDAY with a Toronto Terminal controller, stating his
intentions to land on the highway. At 1047 EDT, the airplane landed on the eastbound lanes of the
highway, there were no injuries and the aircraft was undamaged.

Maintenance inspection has not revealed any mechanical explanation for the event, and there was
sufficient fuel remaining in each tank after the emergency landing."

[CpnCrunch]

I wonder if they switched tanks during taxi, as per the checklist. And why not try switching back to the other tank if the engine immediately quits when you switch tanks?

Could possibly be a problem with the fuel selector itself.

[JasonE]

Cherokee fuel valves are a PITA and often need rebuilding. I used to always ground run both tanks before leaving the ground. Also I would never switch tanks right after take off at 2000 ft!! Wonder if they selected OFF?

[pdw]

I would never switch tanks right after take off at 2000 ft!!

Bingo!

Yes I believe you probably would. On the “fabulous” day like that if the drone of the engine changed, you would instantly reach to pull carb heat / switch tanks by reflex … and just like you were taught by your instructor. Fairly scary, that happened to me at the same height with a 68 Skyhawk at the other side of this lake over VIRGIL same time of year same nice morning, Turned back onto closest runway. The mechanic didn’t find anything.

[JasonE]

I would switch tanks as part of my fault diagnosis but not just after takeoff otherwise! The CADOR's states the pilot switched tanks, then the engine started to fail. 1) Electric pump ON 2) switch back to the other tank,

[pdw]

The policeman stated that for the news (same as Cadors) just not why doing that right there at “2000” msl or 1400 ‘agl climbing south (or levelling) before going around/over lake. Sounds like the pilot has stated that the tanks were switched routinely, just that we don’t hear him actually say it … unless I missed it.

[pelmet]

Cherokee fuel valves are a PITA and often need rebuilding. I used to always ground run both tanks before leaving the ground. Also I would never switch tanks right after take off at 2000 ft!! Wonder if they selected OFF?

No idea what happened in this incident but…….

Some interesting PA28 fuel selector info here……

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... tor-valves

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices ... -14-22.pdf

This link has a good picture which reinforces the idea of look before you touch or move something……

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all ... a-scrutiny

One has to be careful with fuel selectors. I just got checked out in a new this week on a private owners rare aircraft type. It’s selector has no detent. Not sure if that is by design or due to wear and nothing to compare it to. Therefore, I try to have an even higher level of alert than normal for proper selector position.

[pdw]

I wonder if they switched tanks during taxi, as per the checklist. And why not try switching back to the other tank if the engine immediately quits when you switch tanks?

Could possibly be a problem with the fuel selector itself.

An aged/worn selector seal that lets air very slowly into the unused line (gravity draw over time) when sitting in for service / tanks half full / fuel off. That’s possible to empty a carb float bowl / silences the engine (at cruise fuel flow happens so fast) if air fills the line down to the lower wing tank level and not included in a switching check for run-up/ pre-takeoff. The inflight tank-switching itself sounded straightforward (news interviews) i.e. had not come across as a mis-switching issue.

“Why not try switching back” … in this situation the fuel would be priming back up anyway as rpm sputters down from a high cruise (fuel pump) rpm the resumption still takes a bit. (If “sputtering” WAS carbice, the engine fails until a carb heat application is successful.)

“If they switched tanks during taxi” ?
(in such case where that tank’s line might have slowly drained/unprimed ?) In that case the line readily re-primes without incident before reaching carburetor/jets on account of ‘lower consumption rates’ / low fuel flows during testing/switching there as a checklist item.