Talk about having a bad day

[medi-whacked]

Two alleged infractions in one day!! Jeeburs

Here you are in Bum &5$# nowhere and this happens..

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

http://wwwapps.tc.gc.ca/Saf-Sec-Sur/2/c ... pe=0&narr=

Be careful guys "they" are everywhere!!

[HS-748 2A]

Aircraft started engines while ground support crew moving equipment and removing chocks and pylons.

Where in the CARs does it say you can't do this?

'48

[old_man]

Aircraft started engines while ground support crew moving equipment and removing chocks and pylons.

Where in the CARs does it say you can't do this?

'48

Not that will even pretend to know what exactly happened..... but if there are people working around the prop or near the exhaust and you decide to start turning I think 602.01 would apply. Especially if you haven't warned the ground guys that you are about to start turning.

602.01 No person shall operate an aircraft in such a reckless or negligent manner as to endanger or be likely to endanger the life or property of any person.

Just my 0.02 (plus taxes, fuel surcharges, and airport improvement fee)

[Heliian]

Ha, sounds like a regular day in the north. I'm not sure about kimmirut but some of the c.a.r.s. people are sticklers for the rules. Fly safe and have fun.

[1&2SpooledUp]

Some of those cars guys don't know their As$!%le form a hole in the ground!!!

[Doc]

"Good morning Chicago Tower. This is United Airlines Flight 222. We're still working centre, 120 miles out, inbound from Atlanta. We have information Bravo. Descending through FL280, we'll call you on the hand off.

Can you IMAGINE if everybody had to follow this insane rule? WHY do we, on an IFR flight, when our destination has a strip, have to risk missing calls from ATC to update somebody who not only knows our ETA, but is often already giving us as traffic to others.

Sometimes I think our FSS are paid by the word?

Can you say STUPID? Knew ya could.

[into the blue]

Aircraft contacted airport radio with one minute ETA. Did not call entering the MF zone.

The primary reason for the "alleged violation" in this report was that he established initial contact while already in the MF zone. If you guys think that this is actually OK...well, then I don't even know what to say.

Rules are rules. You or I may not like some of them. I we really want to, we may even cry out an try to change them. But as long as they are written somewhere black on white, and as long as we don't have some extraordinary situation on our hands, let's follow them the best we possibly can. We are not operating lawn mowers here...

[Redneck_pilot86]

Maybe the crew made the call and the CARs operator missed it? Out checking weather, another call stepped on it, who knows? Maybe the crew transmitted on the wrong freq by accident? There are lots of scenarios where a call can go unheard without anyone knowing the difference.

[trey kule]

Ha, sounds like a regular day in the north

I think that just might be what the real problem is. As someone already posted, the rules dont change up there.
BTW..If they made the call, I believe all the CARS offices transmissions are recorded.

There are some bad CARS operators, but I have personally seen pilots give them real attitude.
They are required to report incidents. And I have witnessed pilots calling downwind on the for the wrong runway, and then final for the wrong runway...And then when it is brought to their attention informally, rudely brush it off with a "whats the big deal,....there was no other traffic

If the guys forgot the call they should simply admit it and both them and the other pilots in the company should start to remember to make the proper calls at the proper time....not try and blow it off...as ...this is the north..

[Heliian]

Exactly Trey,

Some inexperienced crew will think that because they're in the north the rules don't apply. Someone is always watching these days no matter where you are. Some of the Cars people may not know what they're doing but they know how to fill in cadors if you break the rules. As for the radio call thing, some areas do have poor coverage due to terrain and antenna placement, been there before, but don't make it a habit. Most of these alleged infractions will not be followed up but they are a record and can be pulled later. Be courteous to the FSS and CARS people and you won't get written up.

Cheers

[Doc]

Exactly Trey,
Be courteous to the FSS and CARS people and you won't get written up.

Cheers

True. If you actually "forget" to call, let them know how sorry you are that you were really busy on centre, and you haven't had a chance to call till "right now".....will go a long way towards avoiding write ups. I always hope centre will hand me off before I really have to touch base with FSS. This often works.
BTW, somebody set me straight here...what is a CARS person, vs. an FSS person?

[rigpiggy]

somebody is peeved that there Xmas gift got broken.

[Doc]

somebody is peeved that there Xmas gift got broken.

Can you break a Chia Pet?

[AuxBatOn]

I always hope centre will hand me off before I really have to touch base with FSS. This often works.

Or use the second radio in the aircraft, or ask center to advise the station for you. It always worked for me.

[Northern Flyer]

As a cover my ass procedure, I have always called at least 25 back, most of the time 50 back on com #2. Just a quick call before I get busy with an approach. Then as part of the call tell fss or cars you will talk to them once handed off from center.

Thompson used to be very bad for this call 6 minutes back stuff. It was so busy that lots of time center wouldn't hand you off till you were FAF inbound. Most of the time FSS would just chastise you over the radio, but I am sure people were written up quite often.

As for the ground crew in the vicinity of the aircraft while starting engines. Without actually seeing what happened its hard to comment. It's not uncommon to start a twin otter with ground crew close by especially when using ground power. Starting #2 while the FO is pulling the pogo, chocks and climbing in and closing the airstair door would be somewhat normal. I mean on floats the FO is out on the bloody float until you are pulling away form the dock.

[Doc]

I always hope centre will hand me off before I really have to touch base with FSS. This often works.

Or use the second radio in the aircraft, or ask center to advise the station for you. It always worked for me.

You probably already know this....you only require ONE VHF radio for IFR. It makes NO sense at all, but there you have it. And centre has already passed on your info to the FSS unit via a strip.

[J31]

BTW, somebody set me straight here...what is a CARS person, vs. an FSS person?

I have not been into Kimmirut (Lake Harbour) nor a CAR’s airport in almost 20 years so my info may be dated.

CAR stands for Community Air Radio. It is usually locals that have been trained to operate an airport advisory service similar to a FSS. However they do not provide the depth of service that a FSS would. Generally a CAR’s operator can provide winds, altimeter, visibility, ceiling, runway condition, airside vehicle traffic and known local air traffic. They can open and close flight plan’s but do not handle ATC clearances. They do live in a local bubble as ATC does not communicate with them and most CAR’s airports are in uncontrolled airspace. The only frequency they work is the airport MF.

Now to Lake Harbour err… I mean Kimmirut. I believe controlled airspace ends 25 miles out of Iqaluit, so at 75 miles SW Kimmirut is uncontrolled. ATC does not work the airspace thus you are IFR using advisory frequencies to separate yourself from other IFR traffic. Calling on the MF frequency will most likely be the only way the CAR’s operator will know you are in the area.

Know your area...fly safe

[grimey]

Can you IMAGINE if everybody had to follow this insane rule? WHY do we, on an IFR flight, when our destination has a strip, have to risk missing calls from ATC to update somebody who not only knows our ETA, but is often already giving us as traffic to others.

Because sometimes Centre screws up. They're human too.

Pacific Western 314 into Cranbrook in 1978. Centre passed an estimate that was off by 40 minutes or so. 314 contacted radio 10 minutes prior to their arrival, but never updated their estimate, and made no further calls. Then they landed on one side of a sweeper, saw him, tried to go around, and stalled and crashed off the end or the runway. 42 people were killed.

People sitting with a stopwatch to make sure you call 5 minutes back prior to an appoach, rather than 4 1/2 should get a life, but this guy called 1 minute before he landed, with no prior contact.

[Doc]

People sitting with a stopwatch to make sure you call 5 minutes back prior to an appoach, rather than 4 1/2 should get a life, but this guy called 1 minute before he landed, with no prior contact.

Did nobody bother to tell him of the situation? "I'm landing in 1 minute..." "Don't do that...we have a blower on the runway..." "Okay, I'll land after he clears...." Did THAT require FIVE MINUTES? Nope.

I not advocating NOT calling....but a call on the hand off should be all that's required....

[trey kule]

People sitting with a stopwatch to make sure you call 5 minutes back prior to an appoach, rather than 4 1/2 should get a life, but this guy called 1 minute before he landed, with no prior contact.

And any pilot that can not explain away a half minute due to an unexpected wind shear and enormous tailwind does not not deserve to be called a pilot
But one minute for a twin otter puts them very close to the airport.

As to the call 50nm out....depends on the speed of the plane you are flying. I used to get so frustrated with pilots in the far north making 372 radio position calls......xxxx is 37 miles from Seal poop bay Mine...estimating charlie iceburgs Komutuk is 3 hours and 12 minutes?
The only two pilots in the world that know where Seal Poop Bay Mine is are the two making the radio call