Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

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midwingcrisis
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Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by midwingcrisis »

Occurrence No. : A12O0109 Occurrence Type: INCIDENT REPORTABLE
Class : BEING ASSESSED Reportable Type: E. FAILURE TO REMAIN
Date : 10-07-2012 Time : 09:00 EDT
Region of Responsibility : ONTARIO
Location : CYTZ TORONTO/CITY CENTRE, ONTARIO


Aircraft Information:

Registration : C-GLQC Operator : PORTER AIRLINES INC.
Manufacturer : DE HAVILLAND Operator Type: COMMERCIAL
Model : DHC-8-400 CARs Info: 705 - AIRLINER
Injuries: Fatal : 0 Serious : 0 Minor : 0 None : 37 Unknown : 0

Occurrence Summary :

A12O0109: Porter Airlines flight 122 (DHC-8-400, registration C-GLQC) was landing on runway 08 at Toronto Billy Bishop Airport (CYTZ). The aircraft landed long, and during the landing roll proceeded approximately 100 feet beyond the runway end, onto the paved runway end safety area. There were no injuries, and the aircraft was not damaged.
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Siddley Hawker
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Siddley Hawker »

Has 08 at the island been extended to 10,00 feet?
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pdw
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by pdw »

RWY 08 is 3988 ft. They lost headwind at 9pm.

(edit) correction ... that clearly says EDT ... thanks for the tip ...thats definitely in the morning
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Last edited by pdw on Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Donald
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Donald »

Siddley Hawker wrote:Has 08 at the island been extended to 10,000 feet?
The Island is way too Jazzy already for them to extend to 10,000 feet!
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Cat Driver
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Cat Driver »

RWY 08 is 3988 ft. They lost the headwind at 9pm.


Fortunately the loss of headwind was within their ability to prevent it from plunging into the ground at high speed.
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JigglyBus
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by JigglyBus »

pdw.....was that a serious post? sarcasm is hard to catch in text.
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altiplano
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by altiplano »

Where does this 9pm stuff come from? POE122 is a morning flight outta Newark.
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pdw
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by pdw »

I got the time wrong 'Cat driver', it happened at ... 9AM ... (not PM ).

The 9:00EDT is AM for sure. [No headwind there either (light 90deg left crossw).. Wunderground]

(No sarcasm)
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tbaylx
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by tbaylx »

Well PDW we ask because "lost the headwind" isn't exactly a technical term nor reason to run an aircraft off the end of a runway. Statements like that kind of take away your credibility, hence Cat Drivers tongue in cheek response.
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slam525i
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by slam525i »

Was this a "We got 200 ft of run-off so let's just use it" or "Full beta and pushing the brakes thru the floor"?

I can't imagine the former as surely no-one is THAT brave. And I can't imagine the latter as they nearly wreaked a Q400 on their home field.

(Thank God this didn't make the news. Can you imagine the media sensation screaming about shutting CYTZ for safety issues?)
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altiplano
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by altiplano »

With light winds like that - headwind, crosswind, tailwind it is a non-event (or at least should be). That aircraft would have been quite light with the load as it is reported and even with only discing and normal to light braking that aircraft will stop quickly. If you throw reverse and hit the brakes it will stop fast.

Was there a malfunction of some sort? Why did they continue the landing after touching down long? One plane in the lake will be the end of Porter so it is taken pretty seriously down there to not continue a landing if you don't make the 1000's...

There has to be more to this.
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Doc »

midwingcrisis wrote:
proceeded approximately 100 feet beyond the runway end, onto the paved runway end safety area. There were no injuries, and the aircraft was not damaged.
How is this even an issue? Nothing on TV today children? Your WII out of service? Your DS broken? Imagine? Aircraft ends up, still on pavement. The horror!
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by slam525i »

Doc wrote:
How is this even an issue? Nothing on TV today children? Your WII out of service? Your DS broken? Imagine? Aircraft ends up, still on pavement. The horror!
It's an issue because after another 100ft, they'd get wet. The media would be all over the place. Extrapolating from that: Porter would cease to exist. CYTZ might become closed to scheduled airline traffic. CYTZ as GA only becomes an issue and CYTZ ceases to exist as well.
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by pdw »

tbaylx wrote:Well PDW we ask because "lost the headwind" isn't exactly a technical term nor reason to run an aircraft off the end of a runway. Statements like that kind of take away your credibility, hence Cat Drivers tongue in cheek response.
I know its risky to comment without researching it to death behorehand. Yet here is a case where the bouys are all showing the lake surface wind is starting to go opposite to the 9AM landing direction (2-4kts West/WSW across the whole lake; Wunderground history data for 45159,M45012,45139, MCO156, MCG2960). Headwind expected ... so its valuable information to expose invisible 10kt difference in the smooth approach.

Not pointing at anything ... just an observation. PIC can use the hint if not realizing it gradually changes to negative in late final, seeing how all these new stations are able to provide that info on demand.

(No sarcasm on the edited post ... but I agree it may have come across that way J B, unintentionally)
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Cat Driver »

Why don't the pilots who are flying Twin Otters off strip in the Arctic touch down one thousand feet into the land-able surface?
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altiplano
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by altiplano »

Cat: Where does that come from?

Porter SOP at YTZ is down by the 1000's at YTZ or go around. But they also don't want you below PAPI/GS/vertical guidance except in the case of a visual on YTZ RWY26 because the vertical guidance is for the ILS steep.

Where did you land when you flew airliners Cat? on the numbers every time! Anyway I do agree shortish strip should mean use as much landable surface as possible...
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Cat Driver
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Cat Driver »

Cat: Where does that come from?
I was only pointing out there are still areas of aviation where SOP's are not the only guiding factors in knowing when an approach to a landing is getting to low or high and a go around is necessary.

In the instance I mentioned...a Twin Otter landing on say an esker the thousand foot point from a usable touch down surface might mean you will be touching down at the end of the usable landing area at flying speed.

I know..I know...someone will jump all over me and point out how much bigger and faster and difficult the Dash 8 is compared to a Twin Otter.. :rolleyes:

Funny thing though is we used to also land way bigger airplanes on unprepared strips such as the DC6 in all kinds of weather and on slippery surfaces just by looking at the surface and using common sense......like ice is slipperier than dry concrete. :mrgreen:
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Doc
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Doc »

slam525i wrote:
Doc wrote:
How is this even an issue? Nothing on TV today children? Your WII out of service? Your DS broken? Imagine? Aircraft ends up, still on pavement. The horror!
It's an issue because after another 100ft, they'd get wet. The media would be all over the place. Extrapolating from that: Porter would cease to exist. CYTZ might become closed to scheduled airline traffic. CYTZ as GA only becomes an issue and CYTZ ceases to exist as well.
But, they didn't get "wet" now, did they? Someday, perhaps they will?
However, I see your point about the "close the airport" crowd. I kind of liked the idea to make the Toronto Island a Red Light District.
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by Donald »

Cat Driver wrote:Funny thing though is we used to also land way bigger airplanes on unprepared strips such as the DC6 in all kinds of weather and on slippery surfaces just by looking at the surface and using common sense......like ice is slipperier than dry concrete. :mrgreen:

How do you explain Buffalo Airways record at landing "way bigger airplanes on unprepared strips such as the DC6 in all kinds of weather and on slippery surfaces just by looking at the surface and using common sense"?
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Re: Porter Airlines-Off end of Runway

Post by slam525i »

Doc wrote: But, they didn't get "wet" now, did they? Someday, perhaps they will?
However, I see your point about the "close the airport" crowd. I kind of liked the idea to make the Toronto Island a Red Light District.
I'm not sure a Toronto Island Red Light District would like me doing low-and-overs on their establishments... Although the pictures my passengers take might get even more interesting!

PLEASE Porter & Jazz, don't feck it up and end up in the drink! I love CYTZ!
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