Ornge Sikorsky Air ambulance accident Northern Ontario

[fish4life]

Just out of curiosity helicopters fly forward with a bit of a nose down attitude right ?

No. The "disk" is tilted forward, not the body. Especially in machines designed to move Corporate people like the 76, cabin attitude in level flight is important. Google a photo of a 76 taking off or landing, you will see a very distinct nose up attitude which levels off in cruise flight.

Thanks STL would it be standard to have landing lights on until 1000' or so something of the sort after takeoff ?

[RatherBeFlying]

From today's Toronto Star:

The plane took off from Moosonee Airport at midnight and made a left-hand turn. It didn’t make it very far. The chopper flew into some trees and started a shallow descent to the ground.

It hit the ground 850 metres from the airport, dense rough terrain, scattering debris from trees and quickly catching fire.

Was this a planned turn or a failing horizon?

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

As for the TSB, I have seen one accident report from a fatal single pilot accident I witnessed. Lets just say I found the investigation was several notches below thorough and that I had to write up the lessons that needed to be learned.

Which accident gets a complete, balanced investigation is determined by "public interest" or shall we say political reasons.

I highly recommend Les Filotas' book Improbable Cause. The lesson from that book is that the board members who refused to be obedient rubber stamps got the boot and the Ottawa mandarins made sure they were very firmly in control of the successor body.

[sky's the limit]

Just out of curiosity helicopters fly forward with a bit of a nose down attitude right ?

No. The "disk" is tilted forward, not the body. Especially in machines designed to move Corporate people like the 76, cabin attitude in level flight is important. Google a photo of a 76 taking off or landing, you will see a very distinct nose up attitude which levels off in cruise flight.

Thanks STL would it be standard to have landing lights on until 1000' or so something of the sort after takeoff ?

I'm not sure FIsh, that would all depend on their SOP's and I'm not familiar with them.

[Colonel Sanders]

Almost 40 years ago ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Croce#Death

According to results of an investigation, upon takeoff, the plane crashed after it clipped a pecan tree at the end of the runway. The plane failed to gain enough altitude to clear it, and the pilot did not maneuver to avoid the tree, which investigators said was the only tree for hundreds of yards.

The flight conditions were reported as dark, clear sky, calm winds, and over five miles of visibility with haze. The pilot had an ATP Certificate, 14,290 hours total flight time and 2,190 hours in the Beech 18 type. A later investigation placed sole blame for the accident on pilot error due to his downwind takeoff into a "black hole".

40 years on, people are repeating history.

There will be no new causes of aviation accidents
this year. Each will be a repeat of previous ones.
If you want to learn about future accidents, just
read up on the old ones.

[Doc]

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

Thats not really THE issue. Of course you should be well above things you can hit, but the really important part is to MAINTAIN A POSITIVE RATE OF CLIMB!! A turn at 500 feet AGL will kill you really fast, if in the turn you allow your climb to decay. This is what kills. Personally, I turn when it's safe to do so, and I'm in a strong climb. I maintain a positive deck angle all the way up.
In a dark takeoff, the PNF has ONE responsibility, and ONE only. That is to monitor rate of climb to a predetermined safe altitude. No radio calls. No paper work. NOTHING else. If there are two heads in a cockpit.....both should be concerned with rate of climb.
Are there any questions?

[Colonel Sanders]

I'm a pretty stupid person compared to most
people here, but click on this thread:

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... =3&t=86556

where on 18 Jan 2013 I said (again):

As a very simple example, not getting on the attitude indicator
after takeoff and establishing a positive rate of climb, is 10,000
times more likely to kill you at night, than a broken crankshaft.

Yet all anyone ever talks about at night is broken crankshafts.
What nonsense. People need to spend a lot more time talking
about getting on the attitude indicator.

[Doc]

As said, unfounded rumours .... but I heard second hand knowledge from someone who works at the Health Center in Moose Factory.

I'm thinking you should stick to things which you have some knowledge of. I heard this guy, who heard they other guy.....
There are enough know nothings in any business without quoting yet another....

[Cat Driver]

For me the term " black hole " is the same as " Another tool in my tool box " a black hole is something astronomers use to describe a phenomenon in space.

To me common sense will dictate that if I am taking off into a dark sky there will be no visual reference to judge the airplane attitude by.

In which case I am prepared to change from looking at the runway lights during the take off to transferring to the flight instruments as soon as a visual check confirms I have a positive rate of climb in the climbing attitude.

As Doc said if you are two crew the PNF has only one task....confirming the PF is climbing in the correct attitude.

If I am flying one crew I have to be extra dilligent in maintaining safe clearance dring the climb.

It is that simple.

[CLguy]

Personally I don't buy the Black Hole Theory. Don was way to experienced to get sucked into that. As CP with the MNR he did lots of night stuff including night vision flights and training etc. Of course with Air Ambulance night flights are a regular part of life.

[Colonel Sanders]

Don was way to experienced to get sucked into that

The pilot had an ATP Certificate, 14,290 hours total flight time ... A later investigation placed sole blame for the accident on pilot error due to his downwind takeoff into a "black hole".

I'm not very bright, but what I have learned is
that when you are tired and make a mistake,
it can kill you, just the same as it would a newbie.

Most of the time we get away with making mistakes
in the cockpit, but some times you don't. Experience
doesn't mean that you will never make a mistake.

[Doc]

Personally I don't buy the Black Hole Theory. Don was way to experienced to get sucked into that. As CP with the MNR he did lots of night stuff including night vision flights and training etc. Of course with Air Ambulance night flights are a regular part of life.

I hear you. It only takes a second. A distraction of any kind.
I was doing a circling approach into YTS many years ago in the Racer. Part of my briefing was "keep me above xyz feet...." I was almost able to distinguish red pine from white pine needles on the trees in my landing lights....almost crapped myself! Buddy was filling out the log book!
Saw another guy on departure drop his pen on the floor.....reached down to get it with the yoke in his other hand....turning the airplane as he reached down. Kind of had to take over just for a second on that one.
This low level dark crap over featureless terrain at night is nasty stuff.
Even with your experience level those first (or last) few hundred feet in the dark are a very dangerous place.
Personally, I hate night flying in the north. I always question the necessity of night medieval flights? Seems that every hang nail, tummy ache, etc., seems to occur just after midnight? There has to be some accountability! Could this particular flight have waited until the morning? I'm betting it could have, and that this was therefore a totally avoidable tragedy. If flying medevacs during daylight hours will improve safety (and ONLY a complete MORON would dispute that it would) why, Why, WHY are we not doing them during the day????? Obviously, there are times when night flights will be needed.....but, the people calling for these flights are a HUGE contributing factor. One that can EASILY be removed from the equation. Is this NOT our goal?? To identify, and remove contributing causes to aircraft accidents? I think it is. Or it should be?

[Colonel Sanders]

Anyone that states that because they have
X decades of flying and Y tens of thousands
of hours of flight time, they are therefore
immune from an accident ...

Stay the hell away from them, because soon
enough they're going to be dead.

Experience - IF you learn from it, which a
depressing number of people don't - merely
gives you a heads up on a situation which you
know is going to go into the sh1tter, so you
can nip it in the bud, earlier than a newbie would.

And that's nice. But with decades of flying, also
comes age. You don't see at night as well as
you used to be able to, and you can't read those
small numbers on the plate, and your thought
processes upon encountering a new situation
aren't as fast, and your reflexes aren't as quick.

Most of the time, someone's experience makes
up for their deteriorating physical condition, but
sooner or later age catches up with everyone.

If you smoke and drink alcohol, well, I guess
you're in a big hurry to get older, too.

I know I'm not very bright, but I don't understand
why it is legal for someone who smokes cigarettes
to fly at night. It isn't legal to drink alcohol and fly,
and both substantially reduce your performance.

[r22captain]

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

If they fully adopted CHLs SOPs, black hole departure would read "no turns till passing trough 500 agl"

Nothing specific on the landing light.

[Doc]

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

If they fully adopted CHLs SOPs, black hole departure would read "no turns till passing trough 500 agl"

Nothing specific on the landing light.

Which, like any SOP, doesn't address the "real world". How would you handle the straight out departure? When no turns are required?

[r22captain]

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

If they fully adopted CHLs SOPs, black hole departure would read "no turns till passing trough 500 agl"

Nothing specific on the landing light.

Which, like any SOP, doesn't address the "real world". How would you handle the straight out departure? When no turns are required?

How does that not address real world?

As for the second part of your question, what difference does that make?

On another note, we have no idea what departure profile they actually performed.
Seeing as how they departed from the airport, it's unlikely a black hole departure was done. That procedure is used for black hole pad departures.

*i do not work for ornge* I do not know what they currently practise for SOPs.

[r22captain]

On a black hole takeoff, how much altitude do you require before turning?

Thats not really THE issue. Of course you should be well above things you can hit, but the really important part is to MAINTAIN A POSITIVE RATE OF CLIMB!! A turn at 500 feet AGL will kill you really fast, if in the turn you allow your climb to decay. This is what kills. Personally, I turn when it's safe to do so, and I'm in a strong climb. I maintain a positive deck angle all the way up.
In a dark takeoff, the PNF has ONE responsibility, and ONE only. That is to monitor rate of climb to a predetermined safe altitude. No radio calls. No paper work. NOTHING else. If there are two heads in a cockpit.....both should be concerned with rate of climb.
Are there any questions?

I fully agree with all the above here. I always do a "hands free" (directed at PNF) before every departure. That's something real world that's not in the SOP for ya Doc;)

[goingmach_1]

Just to add a comment here. From my perspective there was probably a catastrophic failure or a in flight fire. If you think about a twin engine turbine helicopter, it can do amazing things, as long as all things are working.

Get rid of a couple of things and that changes dramatically. Tail rotor. Transmission failure. Fuel contamination, or lack of it.

CFIT? Maybe.....? Pretty flat up there. But lets say a normal 2 engine take-off, but shortly there after one of the above happens. Now, as you suggested, you have a normal situation turn into a emergency. A crew, probably risen from a very low activity period, maybe even sleeping before the alarm went off. Into a ink black night. Now faced with a huge adrenaline rush. Vertigo, plus sensory overload. Was the autopilot engaged? We don't know. Smoke in the cockpit? We don't know.

A helicopter is a mystery at the best of times. Add a emergency and wow, now you have a tiger by the tail.

Lets wait for some more information.

[Sidebar]

Lets wait for some more information.

Said after four paragraphs of speculative drivel.

[Doc]

Just to add a comment here. From my perspective there was probably a catastrophic failure or a in flight fire. If you think about a twin engine turbine helicopter, it can do amazing things, as long as all things are working.

Get rid of a couple of things and that changes dramatically. Tail rotor. Transmission failure. Fuel contamination, or lack of it.

CFIT? Maybe.....? Pretty flat up there. But lets say a normal 2 engine take-off, but shortly there after one of the above happens. Now, as you suggested, you have a normal situation turn into a emergency. A crew, probably risen from a very low activity period, maybe even sleeping before the alarm went off. Into a ink black night. Now faced with a huge adrenaline rush. Vertigo, plus sensory overload. Was the autopilot engaged? We don't know. Smoke in the cockpit? We don't know.

A helicopter is a mystery at the best of times. Add a emergency and wow, now you have a tiger by the tail.

Lets wait for some more information.

Do you fly?

[Rookie50]

No thoughts on this accident, but from this fairly low timer, almost nothing focuses my attention like a black hole takeoff. Some of them can be pretty uncomfortable for a few moments, got to be totally on guard. One of the few maneuvers in aviation I actually dislike. Thinking of cyro taking off eastbound for example -- towards the unlighted portion of the runway then lift off and its just black. Fun, not.