Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

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FICU
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by FICU »

I like this quote:
"Thus, if such a large aircraft like Boeing-777 of Malaysia Airlines had been hit by surface-to-air missile, the crew would have been able to warn traffic control services of the situation on board."
Did this "expert" not see the cockpit photos ripped apart by shrapnel? What a joke. This expert doesn't seem to know about intercept trajectories of a large radar guided SAM.

And another:
"These shells go through targets, leaving traces of perfectly circular shape."
Like the perfectly circular shaped holes in the cockpit? Fragments of various sizes shredded the cockpit.

Next expert... :roll:
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floydfrank
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by floydfrank »

Why was there no fire if a shrapnel spewing missile blew up a 100 metres from a fuel laden, heavy aircraft? I'm thinking along the lines of TWA 800, which blew up in massive fireball over a 5 volt sending wire that arced in proximity to jet fuel. At least, that is what the "experts" say happened. So, if jet fuel is so highly explosive, why did MH17 not blow up like a screaming pin wheel? That's all I ask, well, that and why was it diverted over Donbass, but that is a question for another time..
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Diadem
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Diadem »

floydfrank wrote:Why was there no fire if a shrapnel spewing missile blew up a 100 metres from a fuel laden, heavy aircraft? I'm thinking along the lines of TWA 800, which blew up in massive fireball over a 5 volt sending wire that arced in proximity to jet fuel. At least, that is what the "experts" say happened. So, if jet fuel is so highly explosive, why did MH17 not blow up like a screaming pin wheel? That's all I ask, well, that and why was it diverted over Donbass, but that is a question for another time..
Fire requires not only fuel and heat, but oxygen. If you put a spark (or a hot projectile, for that matter) in the middle of a fuel tank, it won't burn without the proper fuel-air mixture. TWA 800 exploded because of fuel vapours in a partially-empty tank being ignited. After MH17 crashed and the fuel spilled out, giving it access to oxygen, it burned for hours.
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floydfrank
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by floydfrank »

Does anyone recall when the Concorde fuel tanks apparently blew up when hit by shrapnel? Some may argue that the leaking fuel entered engine intakes and ignited, but I am not aware of a conclusion on that. The physical evidence from MH17 shows blatant strafe marks on one or both wing surfaces, this is not consistent with damage from a missile.
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GyvAir
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by GyvAir »

Well, floydfrank, with solid science, methodology and facts like that so incontrovertibly backing up your argument..
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floydfrank
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by floydfrank »

The next inquiry will have to be into MH17 being over the area of Donbass, and the fact that the ATC tapes of the event have been withheld. If Ukraine is going to assert that Russia was involved and would presumably wish to provide the proof, why would they not release these tapes after over a month?
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7ECA
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by 7ECA »

Come on people, give your heads a shake.

As was noted, the SA-11 SAMs use a lead pursuit trajectory, which means that the missile ends up exploding ahead of the target, which then flies through a cloud of shrapnel. This then will cause significant damage to the aircraft. In the case of MH-17, you are looking at a pressurized aircraft, that had a rather shocking amount of damage done to the cockpit, and forward fuselage, all of which would have punctured the pressure vessel, causing an explosive decompression.

As for not releasing the tapes, or why the crew didn't radio in a mayday, odds are they didn't even know what hit them, or at least one can hope they didn't know...
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Mig29
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Mig29 »

right, you all accuse floydfrank for being an "expert" but you all give your own expert opinions on how fuel burns and how SAM missiles work....bacause just like you all, WE were all there that day? right? bs.

I ask you all a legit question, why haven't the Dutch released the tapes since they said a preliminary report will be issued by 25th of last month?? Why so much silence, other then few news bits on how few more remains of the victims have been flown to their respective countries....why is the West still not blaming Russia for this, they all went silent. Where are US radar/satellite images claiming Russia's involvement...all this suddenly went silent in the last few weeks....I guess news needs to be interesting to the public, and this stuff apparently isn't anymore.

As for the Iranian source, here's one, from our own backyard....but again, who care now, right?

"Facts withheld regarding the MH17 Malaysian airlines crash. Dutch Government Refuses to Release Black Box Recordings
By Sara Flounders
Global Research, August 30, 2014
workers.org
Region: Russia and FSU
Malaysia-MH17

Notable for its absence in the corporate media is any mention of the July 17 downing of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 over Ukrainian territory, killing all 298 people on board.

At that time, and without any evidence, all U.S. and NATO officials immediately blamed Russia and the Ukrainian rebels in eastern Ukraine for shooting down the Boeing 777. They used this charge to whip the European Union into imposing sanctions on the Russian economy.

On Aug. 11, the Dutch Safety Board announced that a preliminary report would be published in a week with the first factual finding of the ongoing investigation into the flight that departed from Amsterdam and crashed in Ukraine. The Netherlands was given custody of the flight data recorder, or black box recordings, from the crash.

As of Aug. 25, the Dutch government has refused to release the recordings. (RIA Novosti, Aug. 25) This, of course, immediately raises suspicions that the Kiev junta forces were responsible for the crash.

Questions had already been raised of why the Kiev forces would have placed numerous BUK anti-aircraft batteries in the area when the rebels have no planes, why the Malaysian flight was diverted hundreds of miles by Kiev ground control over the battle zone, and why Kiev air traffic control data and radar data of the flight have still not been made ­public.

Did the Ukrainian military shoot down the passenger plane simply to create a provocation that could be turned against the rebels in east Ukraine and Russia?

Demands for an independent inquiry into the crash are growing. One petition raises the danger of the U.S. expansion of NATO and military encirclement of Russia and posed the possibility that Flight MH17’s crash resulted from an attempt to assassinate Russian President Vladimir Putin, whose aircraft was returning from South America the same day.

The media’s silence now and the absence of U.S. officials providing any concrete evidence in over a month from their own spy satellites or radar add fuel to the growing questions and deep suspicions of the Kiev coup regime’s role in the crash and the growing danger of U.S./NATO military expansion."
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bumffs
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by bumffs »

Why is nobody upset about the use of artillery on civilians by the Ukrainian Military ?

If the Ukrainians will use artillery on their own civilians ,there is no doubt in my mind they would shoot down a civilian aircraft on purpose.

Show the Radar tapes or end the sanctions against Russia.
There is no doubt that if those tapes showed evidence against Russia they would have been made public by now.

Time to end the sanctions.
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7ECA
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by 7ECA »

I'd say that at the moment, the world is a bit more concerned about the overt Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine, rather than the investigation of the shoot down of an airliner. Priorities change, and the media will focus on the more interesting story to try and get better ratings.

Seems to be a pretty typical investigation to me, lots of speculation when the incident first occurred, some statement of facts released early on, and then silence. Odds are, there won't be a whole lot released until some sort of a formal report is released, if one ever is. Lets remember that the plane was shot down over/in a conflict zone, the debris field was never secured, parts were moved/disturbed, evidence was removed, looting occurred, etc. Even in the best case scenario for investigating an accident, it can take over a year to release a report.

As for the allegation that the aircraft was diverted purposely over the Donetsk Region, that is the first I have heard any such rumour. And as a matter of fact, that can be quickly dispelled, seeing as how most, if not all of the international routes from Europe to Asia, have aircraft in that area.
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Mig29
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Mig29 »

you are so convinced in your own ideas that you fail to see the obvious in front of you!

those so called "rebels" have actually GIVEN the black box over to the Dutch and the international group who will examine the fdr/cvr tapes. If THEY were at fault, I bet they would hide or destroy it in the first place....but you say they were looting and moving evidence around....

If the West is so sure about Russian involvement in this shoot down, they would have created 3-D videos of this tragedy by now :roll: .

Do you guys think that over in Europe, communities of same ethnic backgrounds are segregated by borders?? The Russian speaking Ukrainians have families on both sides of the border for decades if not centuries....it's no surprise some have crossed over in uniform to fight against Ukrainian army to protect their relatives who are being shelled day and night by their OWN government! We are not talking about attacking only rebel positions, but actually cities full of civilians. And the west hasn't reported one newsworthy story about their struggle...

I can't understand a government who uses Su-25s in order to impose democracy on their own people!!?? But when Assad does this to fight off the obvious terrorists, then he's a tyrant and a threat to world's peace! pathetic :lol:
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FICU
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by FICU »

You seem to think the FDR and CVR will reveal the cause of the accident. Sorry but they will show only that the jet had an in flight break up. They will not have information that a Su-25 or a SA-11 shot it down I'm afraid. Let's patiently await for the report.
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Mig29
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Mig29 »

Potentially, but I'm no expert, like most if not all of us here on Avcanada:) I hope time will tell the truth...

But I'm pretty sure if someone purposely messed up, they would try to hide any evidence.
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2R
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by 2R »

I can just imagine the panic if the Russians were to withhold ATC RADAR tapes of any aircraft that was shot down in their territory ,Radar tapes that might offer clues to what did bring down the plane .
Ground to air, or air to air missiles ?.Radar tapes that would show any unusual fighter aircraft in the vicinity of foreign VIP flights.
The fact that the Kiev regime continues to refuse all requests made in the United Nations to produce the evidence means we should keep our powder dry until we have all the facts and know the truth.

Why does Kiev think it can ignore multiple UN requests for the ATC RADAR tapes ?
Are they not required by ICAO to produce them in a timely fashion ?

Can you imagine the chaos if Ottawa was to ban the use of French ,the way the those who staged a coup in Kiev banned Russian by Russian speakers in the Ukraine ?
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Gilles Hudicourt
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Gilles Hudicourt »

MH17 crashed 17 NM from the Russian border and 67 NM from the Rostov-on-Don airport, Russia, a major Russian International airport serviced by many international Airlines including (Lufthansa (Star Alliance). The crash site was, however, 350 NM from Kiev.

The Russians should have RADAR tapes as well.

I can think of 4 airliners that were shot down by the military. Two Korean airlines aircraft, both shot down by the Russians, both by intercepting fighter aircraft, an Iranian Airliner shot down by the Americans, and a Russian Airliner shot down by Ukraine. Both of these last two shot down by Navy missiles.

The truth has always surfaced in these past cases, the truth will surface again this time, its just a matter of time.
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7ECA
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by 7ECA »

The Dutch Safety Board, released their preliminary report into the crash of MH17.
"Based on the preliminary findings to date, no indications of any technical or operational issues were found with the aircraft or crew prior to the ending of the CVR and FDR recording at 13.20:03 hrs.

The damage observed in the forward section of the aircraft appears to indicate that the aircraft was penetrated by a large number of high-energy objects from outside the aircraft. It is likely that this damage resulted in a loss of structural integrity of the aircraft, leading to an in-flight break up."
http://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/uploads/ph ... actief.pdf
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Johnny#5
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Johnny#5 »

Fernandes is the money behind Air Asia - a fierce and major competitor to Malaysian.

His good buddy is Bush Jr. and the rest of that shady bunch.

Malaysian has had some weird shit happen to them as of late...

Hmmm.....
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Whisperjet
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Whisperjet »

English video about the Dutch Safety Board's investigation: https://youtu.be/KDiLEyT9spI
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Strobes
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by Strobes »

I personally find the report made by the SA11 Buk missile manufacturer more interesting than the DSB one. That they went through the trouble to actually detonate a missile beside an IL-86 cockpit shows that they definitely put the effort to demonstrate that the missile model was not the one described in the DSB report. If we are to believe the claim that the newer warhead creates butterfly-shaped shrapnel, and the pictures from the investigation, combined with the fact that Ukraine has the older version but Russia and the rebels do not, then it is a very plausible conclusion that the missile was indeed fired from withing UKR government territory.

I, for one, believe in Russians and the Ukrainian rebels more in this story than the regime in Kiev.

And, I know it was a year ago, but Gilles' comment a year ago about Russian radar tapes... They were released, and show a Ukrainian Air Force Su-25 radar return behind MH17. Google "MH17 russian radar tapes".
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CpnCrunch
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Re: Malaysian plane shot down, crashes in Ukraine

Post by CpnCrunch »

Strobes wrote:combined with the fact that Ukraine has the older version but Russia and the rebels do not
Where does that "fact" come from? I thought the rebels stole a BUK from Ukraine.
Strobes wrote: I, for one, believe in Russians and the Ukrainian rebels more in this story than the regime in Kiev.
I believe the DSB a lot more than I believe anything from Russia's propoganda machine.
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