Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pressure

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grimey
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Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pressure

Post by grimey »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29082666

TBM-700, manufactured in 2014, from Rochester NY, went unresponsive, 2 F-15s which intercepted it reported the windows frosted over.

Another brand new TBM-700, which crashed just west of Ottawa last year, has possible lost of cabin pressure cited in the TSB report as a possible cause.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by girouxc »

An idea, a way to a solution?

Those airplane have advanced electronics and integrated autopilot.

If a sensor would monitor O2/pressurization, after the alarm is ON for a minute, the transponder could squawk 7700 and a couple of minutes later the autopilot would descend to MOCA or 10000' the higher.

This may be a nightmare to ATC but may save the day for the pilot/passengers.

Somebody may have the contacts to pass this idea to avionic / airplane manufacturers.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by boeingboy »

Yea - wonderful...........as it automatically decends into a 767 with 200 people on it bringing it down too.

How about people who become pilots actually learn how to fly and what to do when the little light comes on?
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Flypilot »

girouxc wrote:An idea, a way to a solution?

Those airplane have advanced electronics and integrated autopilot.

If a sensor would monitor O2/pressurization, after the alarm is ON for a minute, the transponder could squawk 7700 and a couple of minutes later the autopilot would descend to MOCA or 10000' the higher.

This may be a nightmare to ATC but may save the day for the pilot/passengers.

Somebody may have the contacts to pass this idea to avionic / airplane manufacturers.

A friend of mine has a Mustang that does that. And will automatically go into a hold at 10,000ft. He just gave me a simple explaination so I don't know much about it other then according to him the system is out there.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by North Shore »

And if you are over the Rockies somewhere, what then?
Otto descends you into the side of a mountain, and you're still dead.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by GyvAir »

North Shore wrote:And if you are over the Rockies somewhere, what then?
Otto descends you into the side of a mountain, and you're still dead.
Read his post again:
If a sensor would monitor O2/pressurization, after the alarm is ON for a minute, the transponder could squawk 7700 and a couple of minutes later the autopilot would descend to MOCA or 10000' the higher.
It may sound a bit far fetchted at first glance, but most ideas for automation do at first glance and especially in first draft. I would suggest adding an automatic transmission of the autopilot's intentions with such a system, so ATC could react accordingly.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Flypilot »

North Shore wrote:And if you are over the Rockies somewhere, what then?
Otto descends you into the side of a mountain, and you're still dead.
I just asked a Mustang owner and he said Yes it will. On autopilot it will turn 90 degrees to the left and descend down to 15,000ft. Pilot has to pull throttles to flight idle. Speed brakes. And gear out. It will decent around 12,000ft per min. I believe it's a 2007 model that he flies.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Flypilot »

It will not hold though. Just keep flying the 90 degree heading.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by CpnCrunch »

boeingboy wrote: How about people who become pilots actually learn how to fly and what to do when the little light comes on?
Perhaps if you're going to let private owners fly these things single-pilot you need to made them idiot proof, i.e. stall/spin prevention (Garmin ESP), automatic descent on depressurization, synthetic vision, etc.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by North Shore »

GyvAir wrote:
North Shore wrote:And if you are over the Rockies somewhere, what then?
Otto descends you into the side of a mountain, and you're still dead.
Read his post again:
If a sensor would monitor O2/pressurization, after the alarm is ON for a minute, the transponder could squawk 7700 and a couple of minutes later the autopilot would descend to MOCA or 10000' the higher.
It may sound a bit far fetchted at first glance, but most ideas for automation do at first glance and especially in first draft. I would suggest adding an automatic transmission of the autopilot's intentions with such a system, so ATC could react accordingly.
D'Oh! :oops: Reedin' komprehenshun!

Carry on!
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by godsrcrazy »

CpnCrunch wrote:
boeingboy wrote: How about people who become pilots actually learn how to fly and what to do when the little light comes on?
Perhaps if you're going to let private owners fly these things single-pilot you need to made them idiot proof, i.e. stall/spin prevention (Garmin ESP), automatic descent on depressurization, synthetic vision, etc.
Whats needs to be idiot proofed is posts like this. I am sick of every time some private pilots dies some idiot comes on with this type of statement. I believe Payne Stewart was killed in a lear 35 depressurization crash in 1999. This was a commercial operated aircraft with 2 pilots. Oh thats right there has never been a death in a plane by a pilot that has a commercial license especially when there are 2 crew on board.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by CpnCrunch »

godsrcrazy wrote: Whats needs to be idiot proofed is posts like this. I am sick of every time some private pilots dies some idiot comes on with this type of statement. I believe Payne Stewart was killed in a lear 35 depressurization crash in 1999. This was a commercial operated aircraft with 2 pilots. Oh thats right there has never been a death in a plane by a pilot that has a commercial license especially when there are 2 crew on board.
Perhaps you need to look in the mirror before you call someone else an idiot.

The fact is that private GA pilots have a lot more accidents than 2-crew ATPLs. Why do you think Cirrus added ESP in the first place? Have you heard of a thing called 'statistics'. Or perhaps the Nall report? The avcanada curse strikes again LOL :)
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Gannet167 »

I believe there are aircraft that will auto descend, throttles idle, turn off track and drop to 10k or a safe terrain altitude, whichever is higher. Up in the high 30's and above your useful consciousness is a few seconds. Even if the autopilot can get you down to 15k over the rocks, you're probably going to be ok at least in the short term - at least you'll be better than up high.

Having done a chamber ride to experience it, I know that the onset can be very insidious and can happen fast. If there's any doubt, I'd declare an emergency and start down. It's too late once you're screwed up to try and think your way out of it.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by CpnCrunch »

Gulfstream 450/550 has emergency descent, but only above FL400:

http://code7700.com/g450_emergency_descent.html

I'm not sure what's so magical about FL400.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Gannet167 »

It could be a certification thing. I believe you have to achieve 10k within some minimum time frame, particularly if the rotor burst zone is beside the pressure vessel. By putting an auto descent system in, there may be some relief in the requirement to descend that fast. Then you don't have to have massive speed brakes or spoilers.

That and time of useful consciousness starts to get very short at FL400.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

You have quick donning oxygen masks that take ¼ second to put on.
I believe the TBM has them at all seats...or it should at the price the thing cost.

In all these cases, it had to be a slow leak, there is an alarm that was not recognized by the pilot in his confused state.
Flying that high unpressurized is no problem if you are breathing oxygen, but I would not want to do it every day.

By the way, the Jamaican one is not a TBM700 but a brand new TBM 900 flown by none other than the very President
of the TBM owner association Larry Glazer.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... 0-wreckage
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by godsrcrazy »

CpnCrunch wrote:
godsrcrazy wrote: Whats needs to be idiot proofed is posts like this. I am sick of every time some private pilots dies some idiot comes on with this type of statement. I believe Payne Stewart was killed in a lear 35 depressurization crash in 1999. This was a commercial operated aircraft with 2 pilots. Oh thats right there has never been a death in a plane by a pilot that has a commercial license especially when there are 2 crew on board.
Perhaps you need to look in the mirror before you call someone else an idiot.

The fact is that private GA pilots have a lot more accidents than 2-crew ATPLs. Why do you think Cirrus added ESP in the first place? Have you heard of a thing called 'statistics'. Or perhaps the Nall report? The avcanada curse strikes again LOL :)
I apologize for calling you an idiot. The fact is i am sick of these types of posts from people whom believe that only commercial pilots can fly. You presumed and made a statement without an accident report etc that this aircraft crashed because it needed to be idiot proofed. There is nothing in any report i saw that said the intercepter aircraft noted the pilot was not wearing a mask. We can go on and pin about accident statistics. The fact is Payne Stewart died while being flown around in an aircraft with 2 commercial pilots. May be before you start suggesting some pilot was not qualified and needed an idiot proofed airplane you should get all the facts. Or at least wait until they are put in the ground.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Gannet167 »

The cockpit altitude alarm should go off at a level that still allows for the pilot to be conscious and take action. If he got the alarm, he should have been able to recognize and respond to it properly.

If it was a rapid decompression it could have surprised the pilot and left him confused in short order, unable to take proper action. But, I don't know that a TBM flies high enough for the confusion to kick in so quickly.

According to this article he asked for descent twice before passing out. When asked if he was declaring an emergency he said no. htt0p://abcnews.go.com/US/passed-pilot-asked-descend-lower-altitude/story?id=25267369
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

Notice that in the sale pitch of the TBM900, it say "Automatic Pressurization"
One would assume folks will go manual from now on...
F-15 reporting
http://download.macromedia.com/pub/shoc ... n=9,0,47,0
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Salt »

The TBM pilot was aware he had an issue. He twice asked for a lower altitude, only communicating to ATC that it was an indication issue. ATC denied the requests, unaware of the problem. The pilot should have descended and declared.


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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by whistlerboy02 »

Starts at 4:40 and it's pretty much done by 10:00.
Doesn't sound like AtC's fault to me
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by oldtimer »

I have had a couple of minor incidents with pressurization. The first, fortunatley, was at FL200 in a cargo configured Cheyenne and what struck me the most was how cold it got and how slow we were getting our O2 masks on but we eventually did and everything turned out OK.(no passengers) The next time was in a very controlled environment in the CAF pressure chamber at FL 250 which was a great learning experience. Then there was the time when the F/O forgot to turn the bleed air on and what was a surprise to me was the lack of physical clues until the cabin altitude alarm came on. I am sure that without that alarm, we could have climbed to a very high altitude before we became aware that all is not well.
Another thing I have noticed, or readabout, over the years is a pilots reluctance to declare an emergency unless there is smoke, fire or pieces are falling off. IMHO, if all is not well, if you declare, you become the boss. If you recognise a problem, as suggested in the ATC recordings, and started down quickly, I am sure ATC would catch on quickly. If I were in that situation, from what I know now, I would not ask for descent clearance, I would TELL ATC I am on my way down. That is what TCAS is partly for. I read about an incident where a US military airplane had a pressure or O2 problem. ATC started to ask if the flight wanted to descend but then mentioned, "I see you are already on your way down".
Incidently, in the King Air 350, if you select "Cabin Pressure Dump", the cabin will dump to 13,500 ft. pressure altitude instead of zero PSID.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by SheriffPatGarrett »

Ha! depressurisation problems, eh? what about DEPRESSION?
Yup, got to be my turn to do two weeks of the night mail out of ABQ to vegas...got in the
plane, a F-27 cargo with the big door and saw the IFR map was NOS instead of Jepp.
Asked the co-pilot...WTF??? He said, you're not going to believe this...the other
captain is very affected because we are going bankrupt...so midway between Albuquerque and Vegas,
at 260, he ripped the Jeppesen IFR map to little bits, yelled:"I'M QUITTING THIS DAMN JOB"!!!
He stood up and kept yelling:"I AM OUT OF THERE"!!! The co-pilot grabbed him by his shirt tails as
the crazy Captain reached for the door opening handle, ripped off his shirt as he was also trying
to keep the wings level. The sudden cold air kind of woke the nutjob and he sheepishly went back to his seat.

They almost had two problems there, Depression and Depressurization(if he had opened the big door and got blown off the plane),
diving 20,000 feet being the third problem...
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by boeingboy »

Awwww........F-27's. I miss those guys, good tough birds.

The ex swiss one we had had a real nice glass cockpit. Too bad it cost the company 4x what it was worth.
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Re: Socata down S. of Jamaica, 2 dead, possible loss of pres

Post by Strobes »

N900HK was following me that day. Its the most eerie and disturbing feeling to listen to at least a dozen calls on guard, and knowing the guy is close and not being able to do anything about it. I can't help but feel for the F-15 guys.

Not gonna forget that one anytime soon. Nor forget to do proper 10,000 ft checks.
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