200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

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dogga
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#26 Post by dogga » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:58 pm

So to strategize, as a right seater, you will log PIC twice as long as Instructor lets say, or other single piston job. From my understanding they switch on each leg am I right? But you dont get much night time on single as well as no IFR?
So then what would be the best strategic moves to see regionals lets say as an example?
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#27 Post by stef » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 am

Advice I’d give my own kids is worry less about counting hours and types of hours for ATPL , and worry more about learning to be a really good pilot. If you can find yourself a reputable company with experienced people to provide the mentorship you will need, you will drastically reduce your chances of winding up dead.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#28 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:12 am

MarkyMark90 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:16 am
For many years, instruction was the most common route to get to an airline
False! "Instructing" was never the most common route to get to the airlines. ATPLs and Turbine Multi PIC was the most common route. I don't understand where all of you come from thinking that Instructing is the key to making it to the majors. Really, it's multi crew, turbine / jet experience in IFR operations with valid ATPLs and PIC time. This must be one of those "mythical stories" from the GTA about kids that are too afraid to leave mommy's basement in Burlington to get their hands dirty putting on engine tents. They rather pay $10K for an instructor rating and waste 1 - 2 years of their life to find themselves on the right seat of a Navajo / King Air.

Take what you will from my rant, but it's the truth. Instructing may be "nice" to have and does come in handy down the road, but certainly not the fastest way to Jazz, Porter, Encore or beyond.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#29 Post by AirDoan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm

Okay so my point of view may or may not have any merit to anyone. But I'm a new CPL with only a float rating, no group one due to financial restraints and hurdles (and looking for that first job if anyone has a lead they would like to share!). I decided a while ago instruction was not for me. Though it was something that could do I know myself. I love talking about aviation to anyone and everyone as we all do. But I have never been the best at teaching others much more than how to use a cell phone. My financial issues had many causes but one in particular was being paired with an instructor who did not seem overly into helping me attain my goals and I was not able to get another. It's a long story but the point is: if you want to be an instructor great! If your just using it as a stepping stone with no real drive to help the students and only interested in building your own time, please don't. Often students won't know that getting another instructor is an option and in my case wasn't.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#30 Post by HansDietrich » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:32 pm

AirDoan wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:26 pm
Okay so my point of view may or may not have any merit to anyone. But I'm a new CPL with only a float rating, no group one due to financial restraints and hurdles (and looking for that first job if anyone has a lead they would like to share!). I decided a while ago instruction was not for me. Though it was something that could do I know myself. I love talking about aviation to anyone and everyone as we all do. But I have never been the best at teaching others much more than how to use a cell phone. My financial issues had many causes but one in particular was being paired with an instructor who did not seem overly into helping me attain my goals and I was not able to get another. It's a long story but the point is: if you want to be an instructor great! If your just using it as a stepping stone with no real drive to help the students and only interested in building your own time, please don't. Often students won't know that getting another instructor is an option and in my case wasn't.
I agree with you. There are too many "instructors" out there that give the good ones a bad name. Individuals that are just there to build time and move on. They couldn't care less if their students were successful or not, as long as they didn't kill themselves or made them look bad. I've had a few of those in my day. I got rid of them faster than you could say "Sauerkraut". The ones that I ended up sticking with, were professionals, took pride in their work and were genuinely interested in your success. I'm still friends with many of them, some that I call colleagues now.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#31 Post by AirDoan » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:39 pm

I do hope one day I can help young fresh pilots as a mentor of some kind like the one I met earlier this year and has been helping with a few hours of informal training in his private DHC-2. Helping people in tough places get their first jobs would be my way of paying it forward. But not as an "instructor".
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#32 Post by MarkyMark90 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 am

HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:12 am
MarkyMark90 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:16 am
For many years, instruction was the most common route to get to an airline
False! "Instructing" was never the most common route to get to the airlines. ATPLs and Turbine Multi PIC was the most common route. I don't understand where all of you come from thinking that Instructing is the key to making it to the majors. Really, it's multi crew, turbine / jet experience in IFR operations with valid ATPLs and PIC time. This must be one of those "mythical stories" from the GTA about kids that are too afraid to leave mommy's basement in Burlington to get their hands dirty putting on engine tents. They rather pay $10K for an instructor rating and waste 1 - 2 years of their life to find themselves on the right seat of a Navajo / King Air.

Take what you will from my rant, but it's the truth. Instructing may be "nice" to have and does come in handy down the road, but certainly not the fastest way to Jazz, Porter, Encore or beyond.
Take it easy dude... I'd say your statement is false. How many newcomers have gone from 200 hrs CPL to a right seat in a BE10 vs C172? I bet you can answer that by yourself. The percentage of graduates that goes thru instruction after their training is well beyond and everybody that says the opposite is lacking fresh air.

And so what if that little dude doesn't want to pull tents? You did it? Your mommy, I'm sure, is proud of you. Reading you makes me think about those people in the sixties that were randing about innovation. :arrow:
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#33 Post by HansDietrich » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:49 am

MarkyMark90 wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:22 am
Take it easy dude... I'd say your statement is false. How many newcomers have gone from 200 hrs CPL to a right seat in a BE10 vs C172? I bet you can answer that by yourself. The percentage of graduates that goes thru instruction after their training is well beyond and everybody that says the opposite is lacking fresh air.
So wait, I'm a little confused about your answers, probably because I have not had my morning coffee. What are you trying to argue here, that most graduates with fresh 200 hrs CPLs go to instructing instead of a B200? Maybe. I was not arguing that. It certainly is "easier". You don't have to leave the comfort of the 401 and mommy's basement.

What I was stating was:
1. The easiest way to get to a regional is by having Multi Engine / Multi Crew / Multi PIC time. The faster you get on that wagon the faster and better your chances are with getting on with Porter / Encore / Jazz, which I believe was what the original post was inquiring about.

2. Every single one of the people I flew with up North started on the Ramp with 200 hours and every one of them got on the right seat of B200 after about a year, me included. It has been many years since then, but guess what? I am yet to meet a person I fly with that came from instructing directly to the Dash 8. I'm sure there are some, but I haven't met any. Most had previous (multi) experience or came directly from Seneca.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#34 Post by dogga » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:28 pm

They seriously put those kids from Seneca straight on regionals? Or just top student of class?
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#35 Post by Cat Driver » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:22 pm

Flying an airplane is not all that difficult.

Flying single pilot IFR small twins in the north does take a lot more skill and decision making abilities than flying a two crew modern turbine/ jet in the scheduled airline business, that is basically a paint by numbers kind of flying.

And some of us found it boring to the point of hating the very thought of another same old flying day after day.

But for every job there is the right type of person, so all you need to do is find what you really would like to do.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#36 Post by shimmydampner » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:27 pm

I agree with you Cat, except for the part about flying airplanes being not all that difficult. Looking at it subjectively through the eyes of a fellow like yourself who has the benefit of decades of experience covering a huge variety of aircraft types in multiple different avenues of aviation, it doesn’t seem difficult. And I understand that. I (regrettably) don’t have nearly their experience you do, but even as I approach a couple decades at it, it doesn’t seem like a big deal anymore. But you have to look at it through the eyes of the average joe. Objectively, bagging groceries is not a challenging job, but even the simplest flying job is. Swinging a hammer for a living is a tough go for sure, but the penalties for failure can’t compare with those involved in aviating. I think it’s been said on this site before, but the relative ease with which an accomplished aviator like yourself could do the job, doesn’t change the absolute difficulty and complexity of the job. And I don’t think it behooves is as aviators to diminish that. In fact, I would say it does us a disservice. Most of us could bag groceries or swing a hammer, if we had to, in order to make a living. I don’t think the reverse would hold true. Flying IS NOT for everyone.
But you are correct, I think, in stating that jobs like flying single pilot IFR in the north are more difficult than scheduled airline flying. And there are jobs that are still yet more difficult by orders of magnitude than even SPIFR, such as floats, off strip, etc. Plopping a loaded twin otter onto a postage stamp esker or maneuvering a float-equipped turbine otter safely through a rock-infested hell hole, present incredible stressful challenges that, on the surface, don’t seem to relate to airline operations in a straight line sort of way, but that experience does develop certain intangible and very valuable decision making and problem solving skills that are probably largely unrecognized by those who don’t get to experience them. I believe that sort of experience can develop those skills more rapidly and more fully than other types of experience (such as right seat twin turbine) can, and I believe those skills are very important for all aviators who wish to be a captain, to possess. That is why I think it is the preferred experience to obtain, if you can get it. (Although I do recognize that it is certainly not the only way to develop those skills and that not everyone can, or wants to, take that path.)
The thing is, after you’ve had your fill of that experience, it can get a bit long in the tooth. Usually, that stuff comes with less money, a schedule so awful it might as well be non-existent, hard labour and a host of other inconveniences and annoyances, small and large, that start to make the boring, paint by numbers job look pretty great in comparison.
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#37 Post by NotDirty! » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:04 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:12 am
MarkyMark90 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:16 am
For many years, instruction was the most common route to get to an airline
False! "Instructing" was never the most common route to get to the airlines. ATPLs and Turbine Multi PIC was the most common route. I don't understand where all of you come from thinking that Instructing is the key to making it to the majors. Really, it's multi crew, turbine / jet experience in IFR operations with valid ATPLs and PIC time. This must be one of those "mythical stories" from the GTA about kids that are too afraid to leave mommy's basement in Burlington to get their hands dirty putting on engine tents. They rather pay $10K for an instructor rating and waste 1 - 2 years of their life to find themselves on the right seat of a Navajo / King Air.

Take what you will from my rant, but it's the truth. Instructing may be "nice" to have and does come in handy down the road, but certainly not the fastest way to Jazz, Porter, Encore or beyond.
FALSE!
Instructing has been a common route to build enough time to get on with a 703/704 operator with whom to build multi-crew/turbine/IFR experience, in order to get hired by the airlines. I have known MANY ex-instructors flying in the north, having built up some good PIC experience that got them in the door as a King Air FO, and some MPIC experience that made them upgradeable to comply with contract requirements. I watched many of these guys and girls build up another 2-3000+ hours on that small turboprop, then get picked up by Jazz/Porter/etc. It's only been in the past couple of years that the regionals have been hiring the guys with less than 2000 TT... now less than 1500 TT....

Instructing is definitely not for everybody, but don't paint all instructors with the same brush! I wouldn't say that instructing is the key to making it to the majors, and I don't like the idea of someone with only instructing experience getting hired by the majors any more than the idea of them hiring a fresh CPL with 200.1 hours. But the nice thing about aviation is that there are so many different types of flying jobs out there, and working as an instructor is a great way to build experience for many of them. For those who are not necessarily looking for the fastest route to an A320, perhaps figure out what the ideal candidate looks like at your dream job, and work your way backwards from there. But don't forget to enjoy yourself along the way. It's not just about the destination, it is also about the journey!
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Re: 200 Hrs CPL getting hired at 703

#38 Post by NotDirty! » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:04 pm

HansDietrich wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:12 am
MarkyMark90 wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:16 am
For many years, instruction was the most common route to get to an airline
False! "Instructing" was never the most common route to get to the airlines. ATPLs and Turbine Multi PIC was the most common route. I don't understand where all of you come from thinking that Instructing is the key to making it to the majors. Really, it's multi crew, turbine / jet experience in IFR operations with valid ATPLs and PIC time. This must be one of those "mythical stories" from the GTA about kids that are too afraid to leave mommy's basement in Burlington to get their hands dirty putting on engine tents. They rather pay $10K for an instructor rating and waste 1 - 2 years of their life to find themselves on the right seat of a Navajo / King Air.

Take what you will from my rant, but it's the truth. Instructing may be "nice" to have and does come in handy down the road, but certainly not the fastest way to Jazz, Porter, Encore or beyond.
FALSE!
Instructing has been a common route to build enough time to get on with a 703/704 operator with whom to build multi-crew/turbine/IFR experience, in order to get hired by the airlines. I have known MANY ex-instructors flying in the north, having built up some good PIC experience that got them in the door as a King Air FO, and some MPIC experience that made them upgradeable to comply with contract requirements. I watched many of these guys and girls build up another 2-3000+ hours on that small turboprop, then get picked up by Jazz/Porter/etc. It's only been in the past couple of years that the regionals have been hiring the guys with less than 2000 TT... now less than 1500 TT....

Instructing is definitely not for everybody, but don't paint all instructors with the same brush! I wouldn't say that instructing is the key to making it to the majors, and I don't like the idea of someone with only instructing experience getting hired by the majors any more than the idea of them hiring a fresh CPL with 200.1 hours. But the nice thing about aviation is that there are so many different types of flying jobs out there, and working as an instructor is a great way to build experience for many of them. For those who are not necessarily looking for the fastest route to an A320, perhaps figure out what the ideal candidate looks like at your dream job, and work your way backwards from there. But don't forget to enjoy yourself along the way. It's not just about the destination, it is also about the journey!
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