RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:40 am
shimmydampner wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:05 am
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:30 am
It's more the "pilot in waiting" idea in general. While I don't have an issue with it per se
, it's the uncertainty around it I abhor - The "6-24 month waiting time, depending on company demand" caveat. I don't think that practice is acceptable. Now if, on the other hand, the arrangement is "you will work a ramp for one year, after which you will copilot a King Air. If we think that's too much iron for you at that time, we'll put you in one of our Navajos.", it is an entirely fair arrangement in my view. Please understand that I am not arguing against pilots starting out by mopping floors and hauling drums. I am arguing for more certainty.
Your idealism belies a naïveté about how an aviation business actually operates. Promising someone a flying seat after x
number of months sounds great in theory, but what happens when that time comes and there is not a position available because the industry movement is stagnant and no one has moved on?
Oh, certainly I am naïve regarding the matter. I accept that. I've always been idealistic.
Why would it be a burden to place a newbie in a right seat in place of someone else for the odd pairing? You're still (or at least, could be) paying everyone the same, assuming a salaried position. There may be some labour strife over loggable hours, but that's the only concern I can envision. Is it that once you've made it to a right seat, you are now entitled to not perform ramp/dock/dispatch/following/whatever duties again? Because that sentiment smacks of hypocrisy, considering many of the comments in this thread.
I suppose these arrangements depend on there being "ramp boys" and "fly boys", and never the twain shall meet? I don't understand why those duties cannot be shared where there are insufficient flyable hours to allow for everyone who's paid their dues to actually fly.
Hangry wrote: ↑Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:57 am
Just shut up and get to work. Seriously. Either you or someone else.
Either you want it bad enough or you don’t. Those that do, do what it takes.
The employment arrangements I am speaking out against fail to even define "what it takes". 12-24 months depending on company demand tells me that the boss's nephew is quite likely to land the seat I have been patiently awaiting while paying my dues.
Besides, either add something constructive, respond to my arguments in a civil manner, or shut up and stay out of the thread. Your dismissive and condescending attitude is contributing nothing.
Q: Why would it be a burden to place a newbie in a right seat in place of someone else for the odd pairing?
A: In a way this does happen lots where possible in my experience. Most pilots are actually eager to get guys they enjoy working with stick time, and the company don't care if does't effect their ops. Whether its someone filling the empty right seat of a single pilot plane, or a swamper/rampie coming for a ride and getting some cruise flight stick time on a empty leg in a two crew machine. Neither of these examples are loggable time, but great experience..
Now if what you are really getting at is a situation where rampies get actually trained and can fill in as a legit copilot on a kingair or navajo every couple weeks when the company doesnt actually need them on flight line, this gets tricky. Here's two reasons why.
1.) Pilots are whores.
Air Tindi used to do this part time copilot thing with their rampies on the beech/twotter when they were having trouble enticing people to come up to ramp in Yellowknife. What would happen is some rampies would get fed up only getting to fly a trip every two weeks, and @#$! off to the first southern operator needing copilots on the same type with their shiny ppc.
2.) Training is dumb expensive, and needs to be kept current.
I think this is the biggest thing you aren't factoring in. A Company estimating 12-24 months ramping means 1-3 training events before you are actually needed on flight line. This is a huge investment on the companies end put into someone they don't really know or need, and probably doesn't really want to live in shithole lake as a rampie.
Q: Is it that once you've made it to a right seat, you are now entitled to not perform ramp/dock/dispatch/following/whatever duties again? Because that sentiment smacks of hypocrisy, considering many of the comments in this thread.
A: That is not how it works, at least for operations that have a need for "pilot in waiting". The rampie is expected to do ramp jobs. The copilot is expected to do copilot jobs first, and will 100% be expected to do any ramp jobs as required (busy day, not enough rampies, to get out faster whatever).
Becoming a copilot is just phase 2 of the "apprenticeship" to become a captain, and anyone who thinks that they are somehow above those duties will not get far in a small operation.