Pathways to an FO job

[Kenton]

Hi there

I'm considering changing careers at the age of 31 (hope it's not too late).. I've been doing some research and I've got a couple questions..

It seems that after a CPL course, pilots either get an additional license to become an instructor or work on the ramp..

I've noticed a couple comments were people are being warned not to become an instructor just to build hours or only to become an instructor if you really want to instruct. I'd think that instructing would be a logical stepping stone because you could hone your skills while building hours. Have I missed something there?

Now working on the ramp.. I don't understand how that helps you get a job.. Is it because when a vacancy comes up you're already working for the company and they tend to hire from within? If you're working the ramp straight out of the CPL course they you'll only have about 200 hours, surely you won't get hired with only 200 hours. When do you start to build the extra hours so you'll be employable?

Thanks very much

[glorifieddriver]

There is a lot more to being an F/O than actually flying an airplane. You of course are expected to have a certain skill level on your hands and feet, however depending on the company you end up in, you might have a whole lot more to deal with than flying. Without working on the ground (ramp/dispatch/etc) you might not have the necessary skills to compliment your flying abilities, which would make it a difficult transition. If you are planning to work the ground, make sure you are doing so in a reputable company for an acceptable wage and conditions. There are places out there where you get treated really well and learn a whole lot.

[Tail Timer]

Try finding a job flying skydivers, pipeline patrol, single engine charter or any type of work that allows you to get some flying experience and get logging some hours. Or, if you can afford it, buy an airplane (or a share in one) and fly it!

[ba31pilot]

Morning Kenton,

Good for you for asking the questions before jumping in. I was in the same boat when I transitioned to aviation. I was 30 yrs old with a family and a full time job. I went the instructor route because it gave me an opportunity to build hours working part time while still keeping my regular job. Then, when I had enough time I transitioned full time to a first officer flying position.

I know LOTS of people who have gone the ramp route, but that pay scale wasn't an option for me. My career has worked out quite well. My goal was always to be at an airline, but instead I wound up in the corporate world and have never looked back.

The one reality you will more than likely have to accept is that you will have to move...or commute.

Hope this helps.

[x15]

Check your PM

[loopa]

I went the instructor route and made it to the airlines. In the meantime I had the opportunity to do neat jobs with my instructor background in the airline training departments. Mind you I was and still am a junior guy in the training department after several years of doing it, but boy has it changed my mindset and helped me become better and effective at work.

People will tell you instructor's are useless and that the ones that can do, teach. It's the same rant that I was going on about in the AC forums where people were saying PIC is king, blah blah blah.

Have a good attitude and the ramp or instructor route will work out. Read this quote from xsbank - it's golden advice - esp the part in bold.

Hey Johnny, to least I can get them to read your resume!

Warning, Dad Lecture to follow...
Sometimes you need to take a crappy job as a stopgap, a way to get some much-needed experience. Sadly, there are plenty of those companies in Canada willing to exploit you for a few years. I met a guy who started right at Emirates with a brand new ATPL and he was an A340 Captain on his 30th birthday. Bought himself a Porsche as a birthday present.

That doesn't happen here.

There are, however, many good career opportunities if you are focussed and know what your goals are. The trick, requiring much self-deception, is to not be in too much of a rush; yet, make sure if you do have to compromise, you can see a way forward.

To live long and prosper (the living long is the goal, prosper comes next!) you must remember to ALWAYS be a professional, to conduct your career as if the Chief Pilot at Air Canada is always riding with you, even if you find yourself at a crap company flying junk. All of that will change eventually, if you keep it together and never stop striving to be the best.

As soon as you feel complacent, comfortable, bulletproof, you may be very near the end of your career/life. Do something about it.

Don't forget, father knows best!

[upintheair_]

I got a job flying a Navajo right seat right out of flight school. It wasn't that hard. It's doable but very much right time right place kind of situation.

One of my old instructors started flying when he was 30 and a good friend of mine is now an instructor at 31. The former guy is now flying a 1900 right seat after two years instructing. Lots of ways to get er done.

[CAL]

When you do get a chance to choose between corporate/single owner flying vs airline go corporate/single owner
you may not make the top end bucks that senior guys with AC make now (that will likely come to an end) but you will have a better lifestyle and overall experience of aviation and hopefully not end up bitter and divorced. My 2 cents after working in both worlds.

If you cant afford to buy a nice jet and you want to fly one then you will always question your decision so you might as well go for it.

For what its worth I did all my licenses while still working full time and instructed over the weekends until I had enough time to go fo on a small turbo prop.....lets just say by Sunday night I was dizzy.

Best of luck

[Kenton]

Thanks a lot for the replies and all the info. I appreciate the advice and the different points of view.. It's very helpful to hear about your experiences.. Thanks

[upintheair_]

Also, I got my first flying job at 27. And while I'm quite a bit older than my co-workers I don't mind. I've had a pretty good life up until now as I'm sure you have.

My advice... if you can, try to finish your training in an expedited fashion and get working as soon as possible.

[Vanguard]

Instructing is a great route. You really learn a lot too.

My advise tho...Once you're close to 1000 TT ....Really start flapping your wings for a FO Position as Instructing is great experience but real IFR flying is quite a contrast to the learning environment.

Good luck!

[andy.air]

I've done a little bit of both ramp and instructing, but ultimately, it was my instructing that landed me my first F/O gig.

In a lot of ways, I find that the ramp route does bring to it a bit of complementary skills that helps the new F/O transition to his/her role. Knowing how to move airplanes with a tug, throwing bags, and otherwise dealing with customers can make you somewhat well rounded. The big but here is that you have to work for a company that can guarantee you a seat on the flight line, and I never worked for a company that did (they do exist, but it really depends on where you go). I have known many 200 hour rampies who get hired flying, you just have to be the lucky guy/gal.

There isn't too much to get out of instructing to be honest. Sitting in the right seat beside a student and flying circuits all day does not really improve on the flying skills too much (some argue it might even degrade it), but it does help you think about the bigger picture a little bit more and tends to make you a little more resourceful in the cockpit. All this said, getting PIC hours, and building a book thick of time (assuming your school is busy) can really give you a slight advantage when you do land an F/O job and need certain hours to upgrade to the left seat. I've known instructors who made captain in a year after flying right seat in a turboprop, for no other reason than because they have a thicker log book.

I left a time-building instructing job for an F/O job before I even reached 1000 hours, and ended up in a company that doesn't fly spectacular amount of hours, which also means slower upgrades. I am a little better off than some, as I know people who did take a ramp job from the get go and don't even have enough PIC for an ATPL, but I can't help but feel as though a little more instructing would have helped.

I am age 30 right now, and I feel old. To be perfectly frank, if I as in your shoes, I would probably think twice about taking a career in flying unless this is the only item on your bucket list and it is your #1 dream. I do know many people who have done the career swap at much advanced years, but to instruct and ramp in your 30s also implies a lower paycheck, which can be both a physical and a psychological grind. Do not let me deter you though. I only say this because sometimes I wish I started a little younger myself.

[upintheair_]

I agree with most of what you said, but also.. Even though I've never worked a full time ramp job I tow planes daily, huck bags and deal with customers in the front office every day. I got proficient in towing in about two weeks and bags are bags. So to say you won't do these things with an fo job is partially false. There are some jobs you might be lucky enough to have a ground crew, but most first fo jobs will be likely on a light twin and those operators typically make you do everything yourself.

[loopa]

Hi Andy.Air, I gather from what you wrote that you're still pretty new to aviation; albeit making it to your first F/O gig is a really important step in aviation. Almost as hard as finding that first job for some. Just give me the opportunity to touch on why I disagree with what you have to say ok? I gather perhaps some of your opinions aren't necessarily how you feel, but perhaps what people are telling you. But if I'm wrong, I do apologize.

There isn't too much to get out of instructing to be honest. Sitting in the right seat beside a student and flying circuits all day does not really improve on the flying skills too much (some argue it might even degrade it), but it does help you think about the bigger picture a little bit more and tends to make you a little more resourceful in the cockpit.

When you say the above, it leads me to believe you were a) not either that good of an instructor and b) got into instructing for the wrong reasons. Let me expand on why.

There's a ton you get out of instructing if you apply yourself. Since you down-graded the flying skills portion (which I completely disagree with), let's talk more so about the "qualities" that are important for the long run. As an instructor who applies them self, you are the pilot in command. This isn't a role that you shouldn't be getting "much out of." In fact you should be getting a lot out of it. Because it's a job that has attached to it responsibility, the requirement to be knowledgeable/factual as opposed to opinionated, which leads to teaching with primacy, the requirement to constructively and diplomatically correct your students with composure (even when they just about killed you), the ability to build your comfort zone so that you aren't so jumpy in the flight deck when someone screws up, and most importantly the requirement to lead by example and set the premise of how you want your students to be when they go and fight this nasty industry on their own. Why are these some important things that you most definitely get out of instructing?

Because when you are brand spanking new in the First Officer seat you're occupying the second IN COMMAND role. Which means your job calls you upon the requirement to be responsible, to be knowledgeable and factual, so that when you're resolving a conflict with your captain it's with a diplomatic merit and fact, not an emotional and opinionated debate, to have an ample comfort zone where you're not that jumpy f/o in the flight deck every time something goes remotely wrong or is remotely out of normal ops, to lead by example. Why are these traits important to learn and master while you're a first officer?

Because coupled with experience, when you're finally offered a captain position, it calls upon you to be responsible, knowledgeable, factual, diplomatic, be able to offer feedback to improve your f/o's, be able to resolve conflicts, and to have a broad comfort zone so that you can maintain the safety of the flight yet teach a thing or two to the brand spanking new f/o that just left his/her instructing job and is doing his first line indoc flight with you, lead by example and set the stage for your F/O's to want to replicate you when they are one day doing your job.

You see it's all relative. Let's not forget, some of the best instructors/training captains in the airline department are usually known to have previous instructing experience. Unless of course they were a bad instructor which had its set of traits carried over into their new job down the line. Again this isn't by any definition the only types that do well, but they do lead by a majority in my experience so far.

If I was to interview the majority of your students and the majority don't look up to you or want to replicate you, then you honestly didn't do your job. Back in the day when I instructed, this was taught to me the hard way and boy did it make a difference in how I started applying myself and the routes it opened up down the line. The best part was when my student and I got the chance to fly as a crew. Special moment indeed.

I've known instructors who made captain in a year after flying right seat in a turboprop, for no other reason than because they have a thicker log book.

As you see above, there's more that goes into the upgrade than your total time. How is it that we just upgraded one of our first officers with less time over another first officer? Read above for some advice and please don't get mended into this typical mindset that so many suffer from.

Be the best you can be, get the most you can out of the job you're doing, and most importantly proclaim an attitude in your workplace/flight deck that you're always flying with your CP. It will lead to good things. (sorry xsbanks, I had to steal this one )

Hopefully you're working in a place where you're being built up by good leaders/captains and not the contrary. If you're not, look for a better place to work.

Sorry to sort of dump on your opinion, I just heavily disagreed with it. You don't have to agree with me, but I have seen a thing or two to make me believe you're in the wrong. Perhaps I'll be humbled one day and find out you're actually in the right. But today, this is my stance on the matter.

Fly safe and love what you do

[andy.air]

I respect your opinion Loopa, but I am a little offended by the accusation of being not a good instructor or for instructing for the wrong reasons. I quite enjoyed my time instructing, contrary to what your impressions of my original post were. During my post as an instructor, my reasons were not selfish, as the performance of my students were important to me. I am not trying to convince you otherwise, although, respectfully, I would have preferred you to be a little more "diplomatic," even if you did not agree with my words.

I actually agree with a lot of your points. Being the pilot-in-command of a craft with a student on-board is indeed an important responsibility. Being knowledgeable about the operation is part of the professional expectations required on the job. I am a little bit confused by your statement of being opinionated, as though being opinionated downplays the role of instructing or otherwise diminishes the importance of knowledge or diplomacy. Opinions in a two-crew environment contributes to effective CRM, and promotes safety, because it brings to question whether or not certain matters demand the attention of the crew. Of course, being knowledgeable and diplomatic is vitally important, a fact that I would not deny, as is fact and merit. What I don't see here is why the polarities are drawn.

My opinions on instructing are admittedly less than glamorous. I am not intentionally trying to downplay the virtues of instructing, for I did specifically state that instructing allows one to think more about the bigger picture of a flight and being more resourceful. However, becoming an F/O can be quite an eye-opener, whether you instructed or not, and I sometimes feel as though instructing carries more glamour to it than what it really is. While instructing has many benefits, it's not without it's drawbacks either. An instructor does get to fly, which is more beneficial than not flying at all, but the experience can be rather routine, and one is often subjected to a very controlled flight school environment where some skills do not face the test of practical application. You might see more from it than I do, but we can't always share the same opinion. I am not trying to downplay instructing, it's just that I never saw it as anything spectacular.

There is more to a captain upgrade than total time that is true, but you have to admit that total time is important as well. Don't take me the wrong way though, I did not instruct simply to build time even though what I said here may seem to suggest otherwise. Fact of the matter is, total time does get looked at (even if other virtues get taken into consideration as well), and it is a particular "perk" of instructing. Sadly, there are instructors out there who instruct for no other reason than to build time, and they become pretty poor instructors indeed.

[loopa]

I am sorry if I offended you. I take back my inferences about your abilities as an instructor given your second post. Initially I got the impression you were degrading something due to your inability to get what you were supposed to get from the job. So for that I apologize for hurting you.

Operating a flight deck based on factual information resembles integrity and removes any opinion based operation. I found in my time working with opinionated pilots that their demeanor in the flight deck usually lacked integrity. Same thing with primacy, I sure hope you factually corrected your students not based on mere opinion.

Hope we are good mate.

[Kenton]

Couple questions re the flight instructor route..
-I understand that most people end up getting hired as flight instructor by the flight school that trained them to be a flight instructor.. If that’s true then is it wise to train at a busier flight school - so that you have the chance to train more students when you get your instructors license? Or is the ratio of students to instructors pretty much the same everywhere?
-If the above is something to consider.. are there any flights schools in the lower mainland (Vancouver area) that would be better to instruct at?
Or is my logic wrong?
Cheers

[tipsails]

If you are in Vancouver the best place to be an instructor is PFC. Busiest school by far and well run. Do the instructor rating there and you're more or less guarantee a job there. Many of the instructor there go on to work at PasCo and CMA.

[lyrad6]

Big +1 loopa!

Instructing is a great first job IF you put your full effort into it and take each students success seriously. So much to learn, and your skills will DRASTICALLY improve in the first 500-1000 hours if you are able to progress through private to multi ifr training. And then like many have said, start looking for that right seat gig.

Networking is your greatest tool for landing the best possible jobs out there. How do you network? Meet as many pilots and industry workers as you can and make sure they like you! Not by kissing their rears, but by showing through your ACTIONS that you work hard, work smart, and have a great attitude.

You meet lots of people and big busy flight schools. Take names and numbers! In addition to PFC, I also recommend Coastal Pacific out in abbotsford.

Above all, do your research ( as it appears you are ) as the aviation industry provides many obstacles and hurdles. All which can be overcome, with enough perseverance. Which means you have to really want it!

[marakii]

Morning Kenton,

Good for you for asking the questions before jumping in. I was in the same boat when I transitioned to aviation. I was 30 yrs old with a family and a full time job. I went the instructor route because it gave me an opportunity to build hours working part time while still keeping my regular job. Then, when I had enough time I transitioned full time to a first officer flying position.

I know LOTS of people who have gone the ramp route, but that pay scale wasn't an option for me. My career has worked out quite well. My goal was always to be at an airline, but instead I wound up in the corporate world and have never looked back.

The one reality you will more than likely have to accept is that you will have to move...or commute.

Hope this helps.

If you don't mind me asking, how much instructing time and total time did you acquire when you got the FO job?
thanks