Porter or Air Georgian

[tbaylx]

LOL, No you guys it's not a 40 k bond its only 12 k! WOW! what a deal!

Why the F#$% are we justifying PAYING MONEY TO MAKE SOMEONE ELSE MONEY? FFS guys the industry is on fire right now anyone with over 1000 hours can land a decent gig that doesn't involve forking over cash for the privilege to work.

A 1 year commitment isn't really much to ask is it? If you leave before then you pay the $12k pro rated. Seems reasonable. Not sure where a guy with a couple thousand hours and a fresh crj rating is going to go anyways though.

[xsbank]

The issue that we lose sight of in the quest for more hours and bigger aircraft is that you are selling your labour to somebody who is willing to pay for it. Yes, you "get" to fly their jet but your expertise, skill and experience is what they are paying for so that they can make money with your labour. The better you are at what you do, the less their maintenance costs, the less fuel they buy, the less hassle they have for the payoff.

If there is anything in the equation ("equal") that doesn't work for you, if they break any promises or treat you unfairly (or whatever), bail. I am tending more and more to agree with Altiplano, nobody will look after you as well as you will.

But EQUAL means that you also have to behave with dignity and ethically. If you leave without notice, break things and don't tell, screw over another pilot, generally act like a dick, you deserve to have your name splattered across this industry as a "don't hire."

I don't do my resumes for free any more because I don't have a good flying job that pays the bills anymore. My time, even though I am retired, is valuable so I charge a fee. In all the resumes I have done I have had only one client who screwed me by not paying and refusing to contact me and only one client (when they were free) who didn't thank me. That's much less than 1% so with my experience I don't think the ranks of pilots are populated by dicks! But, I do have to remind you how small this industry is and how quickly a bad reputation can spread.

Like the sign says, "govern yourself accordingly."

[anonymity]

Bonds in any form, upfront or promissory are indebted servitude and puts much less onus on the company to behave ethically.
If they insist on a promissory note, I would get a lawyer to draft up a version that has your expectations, that way if they violate it, you can leave with cause. If they won't sign it, tell them thanks but no thanks.
I will say a company like GGN that has a union contract has to follow it and if they don't, I would think if a grievance doesn't remedy the situation, you would also have enough to get out of it.
I flew with a fella who recorded every conversation with dispatch and management and with good reason, they tried on a few occasions to discipline him for things they accused him of saying and when he asked for the proof, the recordings had been "accidentally erased", he said, " no problem, I have my own, here you go. They deemed him an antagonist because of his union work, more his methods but bottom line, cover your ass if you're going to sign something that is one sided.
I have never signed anything and I have worked for companies that had them, just simply told them my handshake is my word and you treat me right I'll treat you right, if they want you they'll agree and like another poster said there are plenty of jobs out there.
Curious, does Porter have any type of bond?

P.S. Just my opinion, if you put money up front, you get what you deserve!

[gtanorth]

the PML makes the bond a non issue. If you go to AGL to get to AC (which is the case for the majority of pilots there now less a few direct entry CRJ Capts) the PML process takes more than a year and you certainly will not quit before you get the call. The only attrition happening now is either to AC which is the vast majority or in a few cases after having the AC interview and not getting the invite.

You should also know that the bond is waived if you go to AC regardless of how long you have been there.

[dhc#]

the PML makes the bond a non issue. If you go to AGL to get to AC (which is the case for the majority of pilots there now less a few direct entry CRJ Capts) the PML process takes more than a year and you certainly will not quit before you get the call. The only attrition happening now is either to AC which is the vast majority or in a few cases after having the AC interview and not getting the invite.

You should also know that the bond is waived if you go to AC regardless of how long you have been there.

Playing "Devil's Advocate", if this is true, then why even have a bond if the carrot of an AC interview is what will hold people to GGN (and not the current wawcon) ?

[Rowdy]

Can someone confirm there is a PML contract in place at this time? I know it was rumoured and much talked about, but I hadn't seen anything concrete.

[JohnnyHotRocks]

I do recall that ad for the $40000 bond. I think it was for a director of training or some other management pilot type

[gtanorth]

PML is in place between all express partners and AC. If you know someone there I am sure they can give you a copy.

there has never been a 40K bond for anything

[Tanker299]

There was some ad out that had a 4 year bond. I don't recall the figure but it was for more then a pilot. It could have been a fake but there was something fishy a while ago. The crj is 1 yr 12k pro rated from day 1. Bonds do suck and I don't agree with them but I know lots of pilots who were supposed to be honourable people but still jumped ship the second a jet job came up. Most of the folks I know who worked for free, jumped bonds or said hey my word is my bond but popped smoke and got out have jobs on jets now no matter how many pilots or companies they screwed over. All that said you have treat your life like its the most important business of all and as we know a company will not hesitate to drop you if they deem it in their best interest.

[airworthyb]

Can someone confirm there is a PML contract in place at this time? I know it was rumoured and much talked about, but I hadn't seen anything concrete.

There is a PML at Air Georgian, bunch of interviews and at least 3 or 4 have already gone to AC last I heard.

[fish4life]

That's the biggest problem with the PML is it is only an interview.

[gtanorth]

7 to 9 gone now from AGL with a few more with course dates. How else can you get an interview guaranteed? So far I think it is a slim minority from Sky or AGL that have not been hired - I'd guess over 90% between the 2 companies get the nod.

[flying4dollars]

Playing "Devil's Advocate", if this is true, then why even have a bond if the carrot of an AC interview is what will hold people to GGN (and not the current wawcon) ?

Because guys have gone to Jazz, Porter, Encore, and even quit aviation all together etc within the year. The bond is in place for that reason. You certainly don't put up any money, unlike some theories here suggest. If you end up at Air Canada or WestJet mainline, they waive the bond. Sounds pretty reasonable to me. Not everyone is here for the PML, but it certainly makes the pot sweeter coming here.

[wabitzer]

Go where you get the first offer... and if it's not on the jet, quit Porter and take it.

Neither are career spots for a motivated individual who wants to progress their career. Keep that in mind. You don't want to work there for years to come.

Pay is probably close, schedules not too far apart and that jet time will go further than -8 time in most future employers eyes, x10 if you ever try to go overseas.

Besides the jet job gets you 1/2 decent passes with an international carrier, slight inside track to AC and a place to park when you go to work...

Plus you avoid the gong show that is Porter and YTZ. A company that although had a recent cash injection is oft thought to be teetering and far from a stable workplace... and we all know the C series is not coming and if it did there are 300 other guys ahead of you drinking the Koolaid with their fingers crossed...

FWIW I know a bunch dying to get out of Porter - like considering just giving it up they can't take it anymore - dying... I don't know anyone at GGN but it's probably the not far off. You don't want to work a whole career flying regional with any of these guys. Anyone who thinks a regional airline pilot job is a great long term career job needs a punch in the face.

Take no prisoners and do what's best for you.

Please help me finish this sentence.

Prior to submitting the above post this individual was likely......

I say "slitting his wrists."

Wait no "tying the noose to hang himself."

[Jack Klumpus]

Go where you get the first offer... and if it's not on the jet, quit Porter and take it.

Neither are career spots for a motivated individual who wants to progress their career. Keep that in mind. You don't want to work there for years to come.

Pay is probably close, schedules not too far apart and that jet time will go further than -8 time in most future employers eyes, x10 if you ever try to go overseas.

Besides the jet job gets you 1/2 decent passes with an international carrier, slight inside track to AC and a place to park when you go to work...

Plus you avoid the gong show that is Porter and YTZ. A company that although had a recent cash injection is oft thought to be teetering and far from a stable workplace... and we all know the C series is not coming and if it did there are 300 other guys ahead of you drinking the Koolaid with their fingers crossed...

FWIW I know a bunch dying to get out of Porter - like considering just giving it up they can't take it anymore - dying... I don't know anyone at GGN but it's probably the not far off. You don't want to work a whole career flying regional with any of these guys. Anyone who thinks a regional airline pilot job is a great long term career job needs a punch in the face.

Take no prisoners and do what's best for you.

Wow. You seem to love Porter. Now I understand why you're on the Jumpseat blacklist. I can guarantee to the readers, from my experience of working at porter, none of what you said are true. You have never worked there and your hate comes from personal issues you had with them.

Ytz is a gong show? Why? One day of bad WX? I fly all around the world and guess what. These things happen. Ytz is a charming and challenging airport. Operating there can be like flying in a club or perhaps a captai. Only landing in honking winds during a blizzard.

Porters going bankrupt? Aren't you tired of this? Since they opened up almost 10 years ago, I've been hearing this. I actually delayed my application due to this rumor. Thank god I smartened up and sent it in when I did. At porter I was able to transform from a bush captain, to a captain on a 705 in Canada. Btw. Have you been a captain at a 705 company?

Anyways, I worked at porter for more than a few years. It was one of the most rewarding jobs I have had in my relatively short career. The opportunities, the people, the airplane, all were fantastic.

Your post comes off quite immature. Anyone who's been in aviation for a while, understand that there are more than one road that lead to 'the big iron'. I had all turboprop time, and I'm overseas flying to big iron. I'd be here as well had I flown the RJ.

Your posts shows the reader how much hate you have, along with personal issues. It's far from being useful advise.

It sounds like this poster might be a young pilot starting out. Balance your motivation with lifestyle. Don't forget that we're only here once. I guarantee you that at porter you will have a great lifestyle. I'm pretty sure GGN wil also have a bunch of good people to learn from and enjoy working with.

See where you wanna live. What your long term plans are, and take it from there.

Btw, you only have a choice if you have both offers on the table.

[altiplano]

Did I hurt your feelings Klumpus? You sure like to make it personal.

Maybe it's your apparent reading deficiency? Or your maturity that should be questioned?

I just call it like I see it...

I said take either one but the jet job gives a better potential opportunity to move on. Do you disagree?

I said don't plan to make a career at any regional airline? Do you disagree?

I said both are similar jobs, pay/sched/etc, and I do know a bunch dying to get out of Porter, I said there are probably a bunch dying to get out of GGN too, I just don't know them... You just don't want to stay at any of these carriers longer than to get what you need... Are you saying everyone at Porter loves it?

Re:YTZ as a gong show:
Yeah IROPs are a big part of that, low wx, contamination, curfew, all are going to screw your day... ending up stuck with 75 pax for 3 hours on the cargo ramp at YYZ waiting for a bus, or out at YHM because you missed curfew. Yeah these things do happen, but they were certainly not isolated occurrences in my experience, and the recovery always stunk.

It wouldn't have happened if it was into YYZ.

Hey, do the employees have anywhere to park yet? At least the tunnel is open I suppose so you don't have to deal with that wretched ferry.

Re: bankruptcy:
I didn't say it's going bankrupt, it has endured and they recently took in a pile of cash from the terminal sale. But really nobody knows what RD has planned, I think most would agree he (and his investors) didn't plan to be where they are today. I think there are too many questions, if I had to choose between then, I would take it into account.

BTW, yeah, I've been a captain and I fly big iron all around the world too. I just don't feel the need to stroke it all off on a webpage to bolster my arguments.

[Jack Klumpus]

Did I hurt your feelings Klumpus? You sure like to make it personal.

Maybe it's your apparent reading deficiency? Or your maturity that should be questioned?

I just call it like I see it...

I said take either one but the jet job gives a better potential opportunity to move on. Do you disagree?

I said don't plan to make a career at any regional airline? Do you disagree?

You didn't hurt my feelings at all, so don't worry about that.

I do disagree that flying at GGN gives better potential opportunity. Also, I have many friends who make regional flying their career. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If you happen to look down at colleagues, don't think for a second that this is normal, and that everyone thinks like you do.

I said both are similar jobs, pay/sched/etc, and I do know a bunch dying to get out of Porter, I said there are probably a bunch dying to get out of GGN too, I just don't know them... You just don't want to stay at any of these carriers longer than to get what you need... Are you saying everyone at Porter loves it?

Similar? not at all. At PD, I used to have anywhere between 15-18 days off. I would bring in well in the 6 digits doing that. I would also have 3 weeks off every 2 months.

I think the people you seem to 'know' might share your enthusiastic and friendly outlook, hence the dying to get out. Any pilot at Porter is qualified for the 'next' job, hence if they are dying to get out, it might just be that they have issues that are preventing them from getting out. It's not a jail, and the market is quite good at the moment.

It's people like you that make pilots look bad. Going around and using each company for what you want. Ever heard of professionalism?

Did I say that everyone at Porter loves it? Please don't play this game.

Re:YTZ as a gong show:
Yeah IROPs are a big part of that, low wx, contamination, curfew, all are going to screw your day... ending up stuck with 75 pax for 3 hours on the cargo ramp at YYZ waiting for a bus, or out at YHM because you missed curfew. Yeah these things do happen, but they were certainly not isolated occurrences in my experience, and the recovery always stunk.

It wouldn't have happened if it was into YYZ.

Have you conducted a survey about the percentage of flights that end up in YYZ or YHM out of the total number of flights at Porter? For a challenging airport, and for it's convenience, yes, there are some hard rules that operaters into the island cannot play with nor get around. Therefore, on the rare occasions that they have to divert, it may cause an inconvenience to the passengers, and to the crews. When Porter does divert to YYZ, they do not park at the ramp, they park at T3. Why are you making stories up? Makes you feel better? Also, where did you get this 3 hours from? Again, share your specific experience with us, don't just throw stories and numbers out there.

Did the recovery really stink? Poor you. Did it happen to you personally? As a full paying customer? Or were you flying for free and thought the experience stunk? If you were a full paying customer, why didn't you complain? Send a letter to the CEO and tell him how you feel things could be done differently?

Hey, do the employees have anywhere to park yet? At least the tunnel is open I suppose so you don't have to deal with that wretched ferry.

There is no dedicated staff parking. This is downtown Toronto, how many companies in downtown have free staff parking for their employees? You don't work there, so you don't have to worry about it. I was there for 5 years and not once was this an issue for me. It's called knowing your surroundings and having plans. Something you may wanna practice.

Re: bankruptcy:
I didn't say it's going bankrupt, it has endured and they recently took in a pile of cash from the terminal sale. But really nobody knows what RD has planned, I think most would agree he (and his investors) didn't plan to be where they are today. I think there are too many questions, if I had to choose between then, I would take it into account.

You said it's not stable. Can you explain why it's not stable? in 10 years (almost) have they ever laid any employee off? Have they cancelled routes? Sold any airplanes? Downgraded their operation? Please explain to me what has been unstable about Porter in their 10 year history.

BTW, yeah, I've been a captain and I fly big iron all around the world too. I just don't feel the need to stroke it all off on a webpage to bolster my arguments.

I mentioned my credentials to show that Porter played a huge role into getting me where I am today.

You were a captain? really? Not in a 705 my friend. Many of us here know who you are, you can fool others, but not me.

[zetakai]

Let me clear it up. As far as regionals go. Jazz is where you want to be. Porter great co too. Many friends at both. Run well managed well. Ggn and sky, have set the industry back 20 years. All of our unions fought for better wages and lifestyle, and these companies and pilots who choose to fly for them have no regard or insight in the indusrty. Jazz and ac have a deep history and will always be present. Ggn and sky can go overnight and no one cares other than jazz will have to pick up slack and they will. Ac is not the end all be all. If you want to go there go, or corporate, or stay at jazz. I would steer clear of ggn and sky from what hear from higher ups . As far as the whole i need jet time. Bs. Jets are WAY easier to fly waaaaayyyy easier. No one should care about methods of propulsion. My biggest beef is with pilots who are willing to accept a crappy deal in a crappy co. We all need to stand united and not accept less than mc donalds starting wages. But somehow we do. Ps go to jazz.

[A V I A T O]

Jazz new hire here. This place is super legit.

I hope we keep the bar high, so GGN and SKV guys and gals can be elevated to a lifestyle similar to what Jazz has to offer.

[AirMail]

Let me clear it up. As far as regionals go. Jazz is where you want to be. Porter great co too. Many friends at both. Run well managed well. Ggn and sky, have set the industry back 20 years. All of our unions fought for better wages and lifestyle, and these companies and pilots who choose to fly for them have no regard or insight in the indusrty. LOLOLOL really? You must be new Jazz and ac have a deep history and will always be present. Ggn and sky can go overnight and no one cares other than jazz will have to pick up slack and they will. Ac is not the end all be all. If you want to go there go, or corporate, or stay at jazz. I would steer clear of ggn and sky from what hear from higher ups . As far as the whole i need jet time. Bs. Jets are WAY easier to fly waaaaayyyy easier. No one should care about methods of propulsion. My biggest beef is with pilots who are willing to accept a crappy deal in a crappy co. That would include Jazz that you so recommendWe all need to stand united and not accept less than mc donalds starting wages. But somehow we do. Ps go to jazz.

Jazz new hire here. This place is super legit.

I hope we keep the bar high, so GGN and SKV guys and gals can be elevated to a lifestyle similar to what Jazz has to offer.

Where does Jazz find these guys??