Perimeter Add

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FLYaJET
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Perimeter Add

Post by FLYaJET »

1-2 years on the Ramp for an entry level flying job???????!!!!!!!!
I think Perimeter is a great company and the concept of keeping someone on the ramp for a while even a year or so in slower times with a garuntee of a job based on performance is the norm. or has been.
Do the hiring people not know Jazz and Encore are hiring with 250 hours off the street. 2 years on the ramp to maybe have the chance to touch the right seat of a metro! Why not go fly a 172 or navajo elsewhere and go direct entry to Air Canada or Westjet in 2 years. At the start of the best time and biggest pilot shortage about to happen s in several decades...this job add is an embarrassment to the profession. I hope no one signs up for this deal!
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FL-280
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by FL-280 »

I think you should get in touch with reality a little bit more.... First of all Jazz isn't hiring 250 hours off the street, the only candidates with 250 hours being hired are through flight college pathway programs..... I don't consider that off the street, and now that flow will be directed a little bit more to bearskin and wasaya for example. We signed a flowthrough agreement with them this fall, lets call it a pathway agreement, a 120 day seniority deferrral....

Last but not least, AC and Westjet mainline are not hiring some guy that has been flying a 172 or a navajo somewhere for the last two years, I chuckled reading that. They are getting serious time candidates and always will be.

The pilot shortage in Canada is a semi shortage for now..... getting there but it ain't full blown yet.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Sunwing has been hiring 250hr pilots into the 737....
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Inverted2
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by Inverted2 »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:42 am Sunwing has been hiring 250hr pilots into the 737....
College kids as well. Not regular 250 hr wonders.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by goingnowherefast »

There's still Navajo, float, skydiving, pipeline and instructing jobs available for 200hr kids. No need to run around the ramp in Thompson for 2 years forgetting how to fly.
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Stan Darsh
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by Stan Darsh »

Times are good, but let's get real here. AC/Transat/WJA have the pick of the litter, always will. The regionals are being taxed right now but are slowly changing their hiring practices to deal with the lower experience levels they're getting. The 703/704/705 companies like Bearskin/Wasaya/CMA/PASCO/Perimeter are feeling the brunt of the "shortage", as their business models, for better or worse, have always depended on bringing on new pilots who will give them a few years of service while they move through their pipeline until they're employable by said regionals. These companies are not equipped to deal with a revolving door of zero-time unvetted CPLs who will now give their employers 2 years of work instead of 4. I'm not defending this position, it's just the way it is. Until Jazz is taking true 250hr OTS candidates, or the licensing system changes and a european style cadet system is the norm, a large portion of the pilot labor force will go through an entry level program like the Perimeter one.
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digits_
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by digits_ »

Stan Darsh wrote: Wed Nov 22, 2017 6:56 am These companies are not equipped to deal with a revolving door of zero-time unvetted CPLs who will now give their employers 2 years of work instead of 4.
From what I hear from people working there, they would be extermely happy if they actually stayed their for 2 years, or even one. Half of the new FOs don't even make the 1 year mark.

Can't really blame them either. If you make more money at jazz even while paying of your bond vs keeping your low paid FO job. It's also expected if you have the same experience requirements as the express/encore carriers.

Those companies should hire 250 hour pilots and adjust their training department to deal with it. A 250 hour pilot who needs double training time (if that) but actually stays for 2 years is cheaper than an 800 hour pilot who needs less training but leaves after 6 months.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by flyinhigh »

Even when times are bad, Perimeter is a joke when it comes to their hiring.

These young lads will spend 2 years on the ramp, than due a sim eval to see if they can sit right seat in a metro. Don't pass the eval and no flying job for you.

I know quite a few folks that had this exact thing happen to them, thinking that they had a job at the end and nope.
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Loner
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by Loner »

flyinhigh wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:56 am Even when times are bad, Perimeter is a joke when it comes to their hiring.

These young lads will spend 2 years on the ramp, than due a sim eval to see if they can sit right seat in a metro. Don't pass the eval and no flying job for you.

I know quite a few folks that had this exact thing happen to them, thinking that they had a job at the end and nope.
What would be the point of a sim evaluation if you think everyone should pass?
It’s up to each pilot to know if they are current enough before going to an evaluation...there is no entitlement in life and certainly no “guarantee” of anything
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digits_
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by digits_ »

Loner wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:45 am
flyinhigh wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:56 am Even when times are bad, Perimeter is a joke when it comes to their hiring.

These young lads will spend 2 years on the ramp, than due a sim eval to see if they can sit right seat in a metro. Don't pass the eval and no flying job for you.

I know quite a few folks that had this exact thing happen to them, thinking that they had a job at the end and nope.
What would be the point of a sim evaluation if you think everyone should pass?
It’s up to each pilot to know if they are current enough before going to an evaluation...there is no entitlement in life and certainly no “guarantee” of anything
Then put the evaluation before you hire them, not after having them work on the ramp for 2 years. What are they supposed to do? Spend half their salary on staying current?

If you hire a pilot and train him to work the ramp, you'll end up with a ramp guy. If you want a pilot, train him to be a pilot.
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As an AvCanada discussion grows longer:
-the probability of 'entitlement' being mentioned, approaches 1
-one will be accused of using bad airmanship
Loner
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by Loner »

digits_ wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:58 am
Loner wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:45 am
flyinhigh wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:56 am Even when times are bad, Perimeter is a joke when it comes to their hiring.

These young lads will spend 2 years on the ramp, than due a sim eval to see if they can sit right seat in a metro. Don't pass the eval and no flying job for you.

I know quite a few folks that had this exact thing happen to them, thinking that they had a job at the end and nope.
What would be the point of a sim evaluation if you think everyone should pass?
It’s up to each pilot to know if they are current enough before going to an evaluation...there is no entitlement in life and certainly no “guarantee” of anything
Then put the evaluation before you hire them, not after having them work on the ramp for 2 years. What are they supposed to do? Spend half their salary on staying current?

If you hire a pilot and train him to work the ramp, you'll end up with a ramp guy. If you want a pilot, train him to be a pilot.
There are many issues that prevent companies in Canada from hiring newly minted pilots i.e. insurance requirements, customers requirements (especially in heli world) etc. Yes it is true that a certain “tradition” of being part of ground crew before getting a flying spot has been there for awhile. Is this “tradition” obsolete given the industry needs? Are Canadian companies investing enough in training programs for their own survival? Times indeed have changed and it appears many companies do not accept reality. Don’t get me wrong, I feel for those young lads but those who sign up for ramp positions in hope of getting stick time should understand the risks and not only dream. Good debate though
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by goingnowherefast »

Do the sim eval with hiring, then maybe 6 months on the ramp to learn the candidates work ethic, punctuality, attitude, etc. They should be in a plane fairly quick after flight school. You want them to remember what they learned and retain their newly acquired flying skills. Driving a forklift does not maintain piloting abilities.

If a person is an @$$hole, fire them early. 90 days is the standard probationary period right? You'll find out much before 2 years. 2 years is exploitation, and completely unnecessary.
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flyinhigh
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Re: Perimeter Add

Post by flyinhigh »

Loner wrote: Thu Nov 23, 2017 8:45 am
What would be the point of a sim evaluation if you think everyone should pass?
It’s up to each pilot to know if they are current enough before going to an evaluation...there is no entitlement in life and certainly no “guarantee” of anything
I didn't say anything about everyone passing. My point is that they take folks cold into a sim and expect people to know/remember everything from 2 years previous. Sorry but if you took 2 years off, you'd be quite rusty as well. I have hired some of these folks that did cut it as they weren't entitled enough for the metro and they infact made amazing pilots. All it takes it a good training program, quality trainers and solid SOP's and you can have pretty much anyone fly the way you want them to.

I completely agree with the above posters. Want to run a sim eval, than run it when they are hired. Doing this will give you an insight as to what the individual is capable of when they are up to speed and current in their ratings.
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