GGN CRJ Captain

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Dark Helmet
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by Dark Helmet »

OK so you're an 8 year FO but I call a bit of BS I think more like 10 year. Still don't think that's a very compelling argument - go to Jazz - be an FO for 10 years and you can make more than a GGN Capt day 1. Really OK if you think that is making an argument against GGN
Call BS all you want, the facts are accurate. Now I will concede that I am not familiar with how a pilot is paid at GGN. 72 x 85 = 6,120 x 12 = 73,440. Yup I did better than that...
I can also see you are not very familiar with the Jazz CA. Either way...

You would not go to Jazz and spend 8 years on the right seat nowadays, Upgrades are at 1.5 years I think. I have since moved on to greener pastures so I am not up on the specifics there.

My point (which I think you missed) was how BACKWARDS the AC Express job on the RJ has become over the last 5 years. How much worse it is today versus when I did that job.

Should someone want to go to GGN to fly an RJ be my guest. Would not be my first choice if I had jet time. Sunwing, Transat, Westjet, several good corporate outfits out there too. but each to their own.

For the record: In today's world, I would probably look at either Encore or Jazz for a regional job. Encore if you are looking at career progression to he Majors. Jazz if you are looking at long term employment at the regional level. But that is just me :wink:
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gtanorth
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by gtanorth »

Dark Helmet wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:35 pm
OK so you're an 8 year FO but I call a bit of BS I think more like 10 year. Still don't think that's a very compelling argument - go to Jazz - be an FO for 10 years and you can make more than a GGN Capt day 1. Really OK if you think that is making an argument against GGN
Call BS all you want, the facts are accurate. Now I will concede that I am not familiar with how a pilot is paid at GGN. 72 x 85 = 6,120 x 12 = 73,440. Yup I did better than that...
I can also see you are not very familiar with the Jazz CA. Either way...

You would not go to Jazz and spend 8 years on the right seat nowadays, Upgrades are at 1.5 years I think. I have since moved on to greener pastures so I am not up on the specifics there.

My point (which I think you missed) was how BACKWARDS the AC Express job on the RJ has become over the last 5 years. How much worse it is today versus when I did that job.

Should someone want to go to GGN to fly an RJ be my guest. Would not be my first choice if I had jet time. Sunwing, Transat, Westjet, several good corporate outfits out there too. but each to their own.

For the record: In today's world, I would probably look at either Encore or Jazz for a regional job. Encore if you are looking at career progression to he Majors. Jazz if you are looking at long term employment at the regional level. But that is just me :wink:

OK I get your point. To each their own I guess. I think the other way to look at options would be Encore for WJ, easy, Jazz for longterm or AC and GGN for AC and shorterm money (If DEC) vs. Jazz. Safetynet at Jazz over Georgian if the industry stops is also a given. Better pay for the 2 or 3 years in regionals goes to Georgian also a given. Reality is apply at both go to the first one to offer you the job and get the clock running.
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mbav8r
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by mbav8r »

gtanorth wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:38 pm
Dark Helmet wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:35 pm
nightbird wrote: Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:17 am $72 an hour, minimum guaranteed is 70. Average block is around 85 hours. Overtime is available most of the time if you want it, time and a half kicks in after 90 hours.
Wow!!!! :shock: :roll: I made more than that flying right seat on the RJ at Jazz. Where the RJ job was 1000% better in ALL aspects.

Shamefull :vom:
That would make you an 11 year FO..... not sure that's a good argument
Actually, that would be an 8 year FO making 72.48 in 2016, now the upgrades are just over a year because the FOs on the old contract have seniority and make more than GGN captains, they can afford to enjoy a reasonable schedule with plenty of room for OT and still have a life!
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flyzam
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by flyzam »

Darkhelmet, I don't understand your point. Of course Jazz is a better job than Georgian. Everyone knows that. I flown turbo props overseas and had better conditions and pay than you at Jazz. Everyone knows that conditions and pay in Canada suck on the whole compare to many other places in the world.

Big deal. We are all pilots just trying to do a job and make a living. If we had any gall, we would stand together against management that uses intercompany pride and feeling of superiority and status to divide us.
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mbav8r
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by mbav8r »

flyzam wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:15 pm Darkhelmet, I don't understand your point. Of course Jazz is a better job than Georgian. Everyone knows that. I flown turbo props overseas and had better conditions and pay than you at Jazz. Everyone knows that conditions and pay in Canada suck on the whole compare to many other places in the world.

Big deal. We are all pilots just trying to do a job and make a living. If we had any gall, we would stand together against management that uses intercompany pride and feeling of superiority and status to divide us.
So you think Jazz pilots problem with GGN pilots is inter company pride, sorry it’s about doing the same job for significantly less money that I have a problem with. One poster in this thread mentions praying for CRJ 900s, at what rate I might ask but I already know the answer.
GTANorth,
I wonder if you have any insight into why I have encountered several GGN RJ FOs who have come to Jazz with your upgrades at the one year mark and ours a further year and a half down the road for them. Some spent nearly a year there and came to Jazz, Begs the question, why?
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805ITT
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by 805ITT »

It depends on what your short and long term goals are. If your plan for regional flying is short term before going to a mainline carrier (AC) given that 80% of Air Canada's hiring is coming from Express, a DEC position at AGL might be a better fit for you. If it's over 5 years at regional, Jazz might be a better fit because of the top end pay scale between the two CRJ Express carriers. Pay scales at the bottom end are fairly similar and not that far apart between Jazz and AGL.

Given the growth at AC and WJ in the short term (1-2 years and beyond) and then the new duty time regulation will be implemented in some form over 2-4 years; pilots are going to be in high demand for at least 5-10 years. If a large jet is your goal, the stop in the regional game will be as short or long as you want.

If you would like to gain 705 Jet PIC time from day one, based in Toronto (we have commuters from Victoria to Halifax) and meet the requirements in the ad, send in a resume and do the interview. After that, if the position isn't a fit, no harm, no foul and you got some interview experience. If it is a fit for you, welcome aboard!

Same applies for lower time pilot that may be a fit for 1900 DEC.

Feel free to PM me if you have any questions. CRJDRVR- you can stop by for a coffee. Management are people too. :D
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iflyroads
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by iflyroads »

805ITT wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:46 pm

If you would like to gain 705 Jet PIC time from day one, based in Toronto (we have commuters from Victoria to Halifax) and meet the requirements in the ad, send in a resume and do the interview. After that, if the position isn't a fit, no harm, no foul and you got some interview experience. If it is a fit for you, welcome aboard!
The only foul and harm being to your wallet as you would have to pay your way to yyz for the interview as mentioned in that book. :smt040
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Dark Helmet
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by Dark Helmet »

flyzam wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:15 pm Darkhelmet, I don't understand your point. Of course Jazz is a better job than Georgian. Everyone knows that. I flown turbo props overseas and had better conditions and pay than you at Jazz. Everyone knows that conditions and pay in Canada suck on the whole compare to many other places in the world.

Big deal. We are all pilots just trying to do a job and make a living. If we had any gall, we would stand together against management that uses intercompany pride and feeling of superiority and status to divide us.
My point was to show how backwards the regional pilot WAWCON has gone due to the likes of GGN. How pilots are selling themselves short by accepting these conditions with justifications like "oh its jet time", "its okay, I am not going to be here that long" , "things will get better, I am hoping they will improve". That is what I am getting from this forum anyways and it is not good.

Things used to be a lot better. Jazz used to do all of the current RJ flying that GGN does, with a fraction of the issues.

There are better options as you and I have pointed out.

Has the same thing happened to the turboprop operator that you used to work at overseas?

If I were to go and work there tomorrow for a similar carrier, would I be looking a worse WAWCON than you enjoyed?

Anyways...

Whatever, its just sad to see what a RJ pilot is worth these days. I think we and the customers deserve better that's all.

IMHO we can all agree to disagree.
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flyzam
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by flyzam »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 pm Some spent nearly a year there and came to Jazz, Begs the question, why?
Because Jazz is a better company and has better pay and conditions than GGN. This is because they have been around much longer to develop these benefits of which they charge a higher rate to Air Canada. Which in turn 'forces' air Canada to diversify and not be held hostage to just one supplier so they contract out to the lowest bidder which if it wasn't air Georgian would be someone else.

What aren't you getting about this? Welcome to the. Real world. Stop your incessant whining about Georgian or who ever else came along and ruined your good thing.

It got old over 3 years ago. Either do something about it or go out and play in the snow and get some exercise - i understand it can help with depression.
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flyzam
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by flyzam »

DarkHelmet wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 pm Has the same thing happened to the turboprop operator that you used to work at overseas?
If I were to go and work there tomorrow for a similar carrier, would I be looking a worse WAWCON than you enjoyed?
Nope - it has progressively got better there since I left 8 or so years ago. Most places in the world have far better conditions than North American flying, which is the among the most utilitarian in the world with very little support from the government. At least the yanks have realised the error of their ways and I suspect it won't be long before it happens here. It is far more expensive to live here and one gets paid far less, and that is generally across the board outside of aviation as well
Dark Helmet wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:28 pm Whatever, its just sad to see what a RJ pilot is worth these days. I think we and the customers deserve better that's all.
It is very sad, and I hope that it changes soon. Too many people have underestimated a pilots value for too long, most of all the pilots.
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nightbird
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by nightbird »

mbav8r wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 pm So you think Jazz pilots problem with GGN pilots is inter company pride, sorry it’s about doing the same job for significantly less money that I have a problem with. One poster in this thread mentions praying for CRJ 900s, at what rate I might ask but I already know the answer.
1. Just a quick reminder those RJs used to be flown by mainline pilots at substantially better pay and working conditions than Jazz, sad that is a downward trend but stop with the double moral pointing fingers at others when you did the same thing.
2. None of the pilots at Georgian has taken anything from any pilots at Jazz, they all applied to an open position. You can blame Air Canada, Georgian and Jazz management for whatever happened.

Let’s stop blaming each other, that’s pretty stupid. Should mainline pilots hold a grudge against Jazz pilots? Or blame Westjet or Transat pilots for the creation of Rouge with the substandard pay and working conditions compared to mainline?
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by Boreas »

nightbird wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:16 pm
mbav8r wrote: Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:27 pm So you think Jazz pilots problem with GGN pilots is inter company pride, sorry it’s about doing the same job for significantly less money that I have a problem with. One poster in this thread mentions praying for CRJ 900s, at what rate I might ask but I already know the answer.
1. Just a quick reminder those RJs used to be flown by mainline pilots at substantially better pay and working conditions than Jazz, sad that is a downward trend but stop with the double moral pointing fingers at others when you did the same thing.
2. None of the pilots at Georgian has taken anything from any pilots at Jazz, they all applied to an open position. You can blame Air Canada, Georgian and Jazz management for whatever happened.

Let’s stop blaming each other, that’s pretty stupid. Should mainline pilots hold a grudge against Jazz pilots? Or blame Westjet or Transat pilots for the creation of Rouge with the substandard pay and working conditions compared to mainline?
Well said, nightbird!

+1
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mbav8r
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by mbav8r »

So, the RJs that we’re ordered for Air Nova that the Air Canada pilots took from them by offering to fly for less and now the RRA clause again offering to fly regional routes for less and I’m on the moral high horse.
Really if you think about it this all started with AC pilots taking the RJs and now with 500 vacancies at AC, you guys voted to upgauge Regional routes at a discounted rate, maybe look in the mirror!
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

Don't forget that short stint when Jazz pilots flew the 757 for significantly less than the Skyservice pilots they replaced.
We could go back and forth forever on this issue. We Pilots are our own worst enemy.
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by mbav8r »

JohnnyHotRocks wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:32 am Don't forget that short stint when Jazz pilots flew the 757 for significantly less than the Skyservice pilots they replaced.
We could go back and forth forever on this issue. We Pilots are our own worst enemy.
Especially when we ignore facts, like the fact that the raise in pay for ALL Jazz Pilots for status pay cost the company more than if they paid a handful of 57 pilots the exact same as those Sky Service Pilots.
But who wants facts when they don’t support their argument!
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by JohnnyHotRocks »

The fact is that those 757 pilots were paid significantly less than their Skyservice counterparts. Not disputing what it cost either company. Don't know and don't care.
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tallyho
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by tallyho »

After reading all this it just confirms what a sad state our industry is in. Capitalism at its finest, reducing costs and the value of people to the lowest workable minimum. Wish I hadn't asked the question.
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CRJDRVR
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by CRJDRVR »

No sense in fighting about who is a cleaner wh*re

We all are as we have families to feed, loans and bills to pay off

Now that ALPA is in place at all major regionals - hopefully things will improve

The entire system was designed to split and divide so we accept decreasing wages, benefits, and no pensions

All the hiring process proves is providing somebody who will stick around for less money, hence why AC loves places like GGN and its lower paid pilots

We are all at GGN because it was the job offered, for whatever reason there was no door opened elsewhere. We work hard and do a great job with what we have, hopefully in 2018 that gets respected with a contract.

GGN pilots need to be ready to walk out, if we are, this could be the corner turned to reverse the race to the bottom

We need DEC's, but come in with your eyes open, you will stay longer if you know the full picture
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by mbav8r »

CRJDRVR wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:58 am No sense in fighting about who is a cleaner wh*re

We all are as we have families to feed, loans and bills to pay off

Now that ALPA is in place at all major regionals - hopefully things will improve

The entire system was designed to split and divide so we accept decreasing wages, benefits, and no pensions

All the hiring process proves is providing somebody who will stick around for less money, hence why AC loves places like GGN and its lower paid pilots

We are all at GGN because it was the job offered, for whatever reason there was no door opened elsewhere. We work hard and do a great job with what we have, hopefully in 2018 that gets respected with a contract.

GGN pilots need to be ready to walk out, if we are, this could be the corner turned to reverse the race to the bottom

We need DEC's, but come in with your eyes open, you will stay longer if you know the full picture
Thanks for that, all very true most importantly the first sentence. Reminds me of a joke I used to tell,
Guy walks up to a girl in a bar and asks, “would you sleep with me for a million dollars?”
After some thought she says, “sure”
Guy says, “How about 100 bucks”, she slaps him and says, “what kind of girl do you think I am?”
“We’ve established that, now we’re haggling on the price”

I wish you and all GGN pilots the best of luck on your negotiations! Go get em!
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Re: GGN CRJ Captain

Post by avpride »

tallyho wrote: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:47 am After reading all this it just confirms what a sad state our industry is in. Capitalism at its finest, reducing costs and the value of people to the lowest workable minimum. Wish I hadn't asked the question.

Thats what you took from this????

DEC at GGN = better money than Jazz FO (good bad who knows, good banter) Race to the bottom started by AC then Jazz now GGN and back to AC again with Rouge taking regional routes. It's not capitalism it is competition and that is also what creates jobs.
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