Buffalo again

[Rowdy]

As a youngster, I spent a bit of time in YZF. Dad went up when things went sideways at AC and flew the twotter for a bit with his best friend. I got to ride around in the 6 and the 185 a bunch. Probably why I yearned to spend most of my early career on floats. Who knows.

Joe was super interesting for a 7yr old. I distinctly remember standing on the ramp watching one of the 'new' king airs (Had to be Ptarmigans as it was bright yellow) taxi in with Joe and he smiled and said 'Turbines are just a fad kiddo'. He always treated me well and I remember a lot of laughs and antics. Although I never did work for him. I've had quite a few buddies who have.

Mikey and I are pretty close in age, and when I was up there with a beaver many moons ago and couldn't find any oil for a 100hr.. he helped me out no questions asked.

I was never adverse to all the other aspects of flying in the north as many of my peers were. Some complained endlessly about loading, fuelling, preheating etc. I think it's those characters who have nothing but bad things to say about Joe and Buffalo.

[TheRealMcCoy]

No pilot would ever choose ramp over flying if given the choice, period.

Nobody without a pilot’s licence would move up to Yellowknife or Hay River to work endless days for minimum wage to be a rampie, period.

Sure.

And you think a red seal electrician went right away into wiring up fancy buildings? Or do you think he had to spend a good amount of time just pulling heavy wire through an old commercial building?

Do you think a driller got to make hole without having to be a leasehand/roughneck for a while?

Take the ramp experience as a learning time, you learn all the aspects of dealing with the aircraft so that when you start flying it all you have to concentrate on is flying because loading, fueling, de-icing, tenting, dealing with locals, is all second nature.

There is a very big gap in quality to those who had to pay their dues compared to those who didn't.

Hell, even just being a trucker you have to earn some time doing boring jobs before you can go low bedding, logging, etc.

[digits_]

Hell, even just being a trucker you have to earn some time doing boring jobs before you can go low bedding, logging, etc.

Yup, that's why you FLY at least a 172 or 206 or even right seat king air as a pilot before you go to the airlines or be a 703/704 multi crew captain, even in this hiring climate. Fuelling, tenting up, loading etc is all fine, as long as you also fly the airplane. If you don't, and you are just being used as cheap labor, something's wrong.

[C-GGGQ]

The difference between that electrician pulling cable and that trucker "paying his dues" before going low bed is that I'm still working (and getting paid as) an electrician or trucker. Still running wire, or still driving. Not working min wage unskilled labour. Earning your dues would still be flying. Just not flying turbine etc. Flying jumpers or banners or smaller twins/ floats. "Specializing" would equal your atpl. Turbines, 12,500+, jets etc.

[TheRealMcCoy]

Yup, that's why you FLY at least a 172 or 206 or even right seat king air as a pilot before you go to the airlines or be a 703/704 multi crew captain, even in this hiring climate. Fuelling, tenting up, loading etc is all fine, as long as you also fly the airplane. If you don't, and you are just being used as cheap labor, something's wrong.

And if you can land that gig, give're.

The difference between that electrician pulling cable and that trucker "paying his dues" before going low bed is that I'm still working (and getting paid as) an electrician or trucker. Still running wire, or still driving. Not working min wage unskilled labour. Earning your dues would still be flying. Just not flying turbine etc. Flying jumpers or banners or smaller twins/ floats. "Specializing" would equal your atpl. Turbines, 12,500+, jets etc.

And just because everyone wants or thinks that they should be getting paid to fly planes out of flight school, doesn't mean that that is in fact reality. If it were reality you wouldn't have all the kids here complaining about having to work the ramp. Like I said, if you can get the flying gig right away take it. But the 6 months to a year you spend looking for a job online (because lets face it these aren't the type to pack up everything and go for a drive) you could be at least learning stuff within the aviation industry instead of sitting at home jerking off.

And fwiw I made waaaaaaay more money as a rampie than I do flying planes right meow, because I had a schedule.

[Zaibatsu]

I never worked ramp. I did menial jobs in aviation outside of flying, but it didn’t come with a carrot.

It’s not paying dues, it’s slave labour and it does nothing to further a career. It would be like expecting resident doctors to scrub toilets or articling clerk to wash partners’ cars. Throwing bags and driving a forklift doesn’t do anything to improve your piloting skills, and in the meantime your actual piloting skills are atrophying.

And if you made way more money ramping, why aren’t you still ramping?

[Donald]

You make many good posts on here Rowdy, and I respect you for that.

But this part right here, you got wrong:

I was never adverse to all the other aspects of flying in the north as many of my peers were. Some complained endlessly about loading, fuelling, preheating etc. I think it's those characters who have nothing but bad things to say about Joe and Buffalo.

It seems in aviation that people like to normalize their behaviours and ostracize anyone who criticizes them, whether justified or not. Just because one person doesn't mind doing a particular job or using certain methods to accomplish a goal, doesn't make it right. And it doesn't necessarily make the person who points out what is wrong, a complainer. However, in aviation, if you weren't willing to do "it"*, you were considered less-than-worthy.

I get that Joe and Mikey are personal friends of yours, so you may be offended by negative views of their operation. If the only complaint was about "loading, fuelling, and preheating", wouldn't there be a similar level of complaints about Tindi/Summit/ASC (back in the day)/NWAL, etc etc? Maybe the issues at Buffalo run a little deeper.

[Donald]

Looks like more problems at Buffalo:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/yel ... -1.4624247

[Rowdy]

No offence taken Donald..I never worked there and never will. Nor am I standing up for the operation.

There is piles of complaining from folk elsewhere, it just doesn't get the exposure that Buffalo does. Maybe has something to do with the yelling/firing and TV show..

[square]

It would be like expecting resident doctors to scrub toilets or articling clerk to wash partners’ cars. Throwing bags and driving a forklift doesn’t do anything to improve your piloting skills, and in the meantime your actual piloting skills are atrophying.

Ah no this isn't true. It would be more like the rampy is a nurse or a paralegal. The co-pilot would be the resident doctor prepping an OR or supervising nurses, or a clerk proofing paralegals work and filing briefs at the court.

It's extremely relevant what happens in ground operations at an airline. If the aircraft isn't towed, fueled, loaded and de-iced properly it's a huge issue. The captain will typically be flight planning while the FO handles the ground crew/ops in a 704 or small 705 operation. 703 one guy just does everything. None of that shit gets taught in flight schools at all and it's why rampies make way better FO's than instructors. They already know how to manage the rampies there because they know what the rampy is supposed to be doing. It's the most important part of their job.

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

[C-GGGQ]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

[Zaibatsu]

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

Maybe it was different where you were an FO. But when I was an FO we swapped every leg, did RCAP approaches, and 50% approach ban. I was more than a flaps and radio operator and you damn sure can’t do that single pilot.

[square]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

Yeah that's why it's an analogy and not a scientific theorem. It's only analogous, and lol he made the analogy to medicine and law.

[square]

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

Maybe it was different where you were an FO. But when I was an FO we swapped every leg, did RCAP approaches, and 50% approach ban. I was more than a flaps and radio operator and you damn sure can’t do that single pilot.

It was not different just as it is not different today. That's not what I meant. The flight deck has certainly operated that way the whole time I've seen any of it. But yeah you can really easily do that single pilot. The RCMP does it all day everyday.

The reason there's two pilots on two crew aircraft is cause captains get a lot more heart attacks than FOs, and to double check everything and help with the minutiae like ramp stuff, and to train a new bunch of captains. Flying single pilot is easy.

[C-GGGQ]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

Yeah that's why it's an analogy and not a scientific theorem. It's only analogous, and lol he made the analogy to medicine and law.

Bad analogy. Fully trained doctors do not work as nurses for 2 years to become residents. People with law degrees do not work as paralegals before articling. Closest would be ramping while getting your licenses (which I did) once licensed though waiting two years to start flying kills any skill you had.

[square]

Nurses don't then become doctors. Two completely different jobs. Like rampies and pilots.

Yeah that's why it's an analogy and not a scientific theorem. It's only analogous, and lol he made the analogy to medicine and law.

Bad analogy. Fully trained doctors do not work as nurses for 2 years to become residents. People with law degrees do not work as paralegals before articling. Closest would be ramping while getting your licenses (which I did) once licensed though waiting two years to start flying kills any skill you had.

I didn't make the analogy I responded to it

[TheRealMcCoy]

Ah no this isn't true. It would be more like the rampy is a nurse or a paralegal. The co-pilot would be the resident doctor prepping an OR or supervising nurses, or a clerk proofing paralegals work and filing briefs at the court.

It's extremely relevant what happens in ground operations at an airline. If the aircraft isn't towed, fueled, loaded and de-iced properly it's a huge issue. The captain will typically be flight planning while the FO handles the ground crew/ops in a 704 or small 705 operation. 703 one guy just does everything. None of that shit gets taught in flight schools at all and it's why rampies make way better FO's than instructors. They already know how to manage the rampies there because they know what the rampy is supposed to be doing. It's the most important part of their job.

Flying around talking on the radio and flying approaches is super important and it's nice that they're afforded an opportunity to learn a trade that will set them up for life but, lol, we don't actually need them for that.

You get out of here with your sound arguments... I went to flight school, I want a to be offered a Navajo/185 job from every operator because I earned it!

[C-GGGQ]

Again, as someone whose cousin literally is starting her articling next month as she graduates from law school, she will spend 12 months as an apprentice, 2 months prepping for the Bar exam, and 10 months acting as a lawyer under direct supervision of a senior lawyer until her training is up. Sounds like a first officer/ line indoc to me. By all means ramp at your local airport while in flight school (as a law student works in a law firm during summers while in school) but once certified a pilot is to be actually flying. I'm not saying pilots especially in northern and remote ops don't also load bags and fuel and all that stuff. I certainly did and its part of the job. Key is PART of the job not THE job.

[Diadem]

The key difference is that there are limited positions in law and med schools, but literally anyone can walk into a flight school and throw money at it until they get their licences and ratings. There's nowhere near the competition for lawyer jobs as there is for pilot jobs, and there will always be more applicants for entry-level jobs, no matter how severe the shortage gets. No one is entitled to a job just because they have a CPL, and employers can afford to offer ramp jobs because someone will be willing to accept; if two candidates are offered the position, one refuses because he's a pilot, dammit!, and the other accepts because he knows he has nothing unique to provide the company, one will end up further ahead a lot faster. Direct-entry flying jobs are out there, but there aren't enough to go around, and until the number of licences issued is restricted supply-and-demand will dictate that some people will be disappointed.

[TheWingedWorrier]

As a member of the oh-so-despised group that seems to be known as "Thumb-sucking Millenials", fresh out of the puppy mill and eager to enter the industry of sunny days and long naps between flight legs, I am curious: Do you folks see much value in a 8-18 month stint on the ramp before right seat? Seems to me that up to around 4 months of chucking bags and hauling hose would be very valuable in learning the ins and outs of the company and how the whole company machine operates, but beyond that you are simply sacrificing your hands, feet and cockpit management abilities for a chance to learn how to operate a pallet jack. Is it really in the companies best interest to depend on the pilot pool to staff their ground positions vs. hiring full time rampies who can train the pilots better and cycle them through these ramp postitions faster? Though I suppose few are troubled enough to stand out on an apron in -30 YZF unless someone is promissing them flight time in the future.