Swoop pay

[altiplano]

It's an unsustainable business model without circumventing Canadian laws. Make it work year round.

17 year contract? Don't know what you're talking about there, had nothing to do with me, but in my opinion it seems a bunch of kids voted with a plan to leave and sold out the next crop.

[munzil]

It's an unsustainable business model without circumventing Canadian laws. Make it work year round.

17 year contract? Don't know what you're talking about there, had nothing to do with me, but in my opinion it seems a bunch of kids voted with a plan to leave and sold out the next crop.

What laws have been circumvented Altiplano?

[altiplano]

It's an unsustainable business model without circumventing Canadian laws. Make it work year round.

17 year contract? Don't know what you're talking about there, had nothing to do with me, but in my opinion it seems a bunch of kids voted with a plan to leave and sold out the next crop.

What laws have been circumvented Altiplano?

You must know that they get waivers to allow TFWs, to operate without Canadian licenses, to operate non Canadian registered aircraft.

Those waivers allow Sunwing to circumvent the laws.
Those waivers are in existence to allow an exception to support temporary or extraordinary measurers.
Instead the abuse of them has become the business model.

[ant_321]

It's an unsustainable business model without circumventing Canadian laws. Make it work year round.

17 year contract? Don't know what you're talking about there, had nothing to do with me, but in my opinion it seems a bunch of kids voted with a plan to leave and sold out the next crop.

What laws have been circumvented Altiplano?

You must know that they get waivers to allow TFWs, to operate without Canadian licenses, to operate non Canadian registered aircraft.

Those waivers allow Sunwing to circumvent the laws.
Those waivers are in existence to allow an exception to support temporary or extraordinary measurers.
Instead the abuse of them has become the business model.

Sunwing hasn’t had foreigners flying C reg airplanes in several years.

[altiplano]

Exactly, but either way...

Foreign airlines, with foreign pilots, flying foreign aircraft, in a sovereign country full of its own airlines, pilots, and aircraft.

We don't have a dearth of other options to accommodate the traveling public that justify these waivers. Why even have our own licensing, regulations, and registration system if we're just going to apply a waiver to foreign business?

They don't have 7th or 9th freedom rights... but they get a waiver to operate to support Sunwing's non-sustainable business model.

Unforseen events happen to justify short term need of wet leases, etc. But when it's the whole plan? It's a problem and not good for the greater industry. Sunwing should develop its own feed and diversify its own operation, or reduce its scope of seasonal operation so it doesn't need foreign pilots.

[ant_321]

Exactly, but either way...

Foreign airlines, with foreign pilots, flying foreign aircraft, in a sovereign country full of its own airlines, pilots, and aircraft.

We don't have a dearth of other options to accommodate the traveling public that justify these waivers. Why even have our own licensing, regulations, and registration system if we're just going to apply a waiver to foreign business?

They don't have 7th or 9th freedom rights... but they get a waiver to operate to support Sunwing's non-sustainable business model.

Unforseen events happen to justify short term need of wet leases, etc. But when it's the whole plan? It's a problem and not good for the greater industry. Sunwing should develop its own feed and diversify its own operation, or reduce its scope of seasonal operation so it doesn't need foreign pilots.

Many countries have no problem with foreign airlines operating from their country to other destinations. I spent half my winter flying from the USA to Mexico and the Caribbean.

I could argue all day about how it actually increases jobs for Canadians and provides an awesome opportunity for Canadians to go live in some pretty cool places (and get compensated pretty darn well for doing so), avoids otherwise unavoidable layoffs, etc., but you already have your mind made up so I’ll agree to disagree.

[Diadem]

Exactly, but either way...

Foreign airlines, with foreign pilots, flying foreign aircraft, in a sovereign country full of its own airlines, pilots, and aircraft.

We don't have a dearth of other options to accommodate the traveling public that justify these waivers. Why even have our own licensing, regulations, and registration system if we're just going to apply a waiver to foreign business?

They don't have 7th or 9th freedom rights... but they get a waiver to operate to support Sunwing's non-sustainable business model.

Unforseen events happen to justify short term need of wet leases, etc. But when it's the whole plan? It's a problem and not good for the greater industry. Sunwing should develop its own feed and diversify its own operation, or reduce its scope of seasonal operation so it doesn't need foreign pilots.

Are you also opposed to Canadian water bombers operating in the US and Australia during the winter?

[altiplano]

LOL... Are you really comparing the needs of protecting life and property with the need for a cheap all inclusive? What's next Canadian soldiers deploying overseas on peacekeeping?

You could argue all day, but you'd be wrong, and opportunities to "live somewhere cool" aren't why we set policy.

Why do you think these laws even exist? Anyway agree to disagree indeed...

[laserstrike]

If anyone wants to go live and work somewhere cool, feel free to write the 14 or so exams and get a European license.

[eyebrow737]

LOL... Are you really comparing the needs of protecting life and property with the need for a cheap all inclusive? What's next Canadian soldiers deploying overseas on peacekeeping?

You could argue all day, but you'd be wrong, and opportunities to "live somewhere cool" aren't why we set policy.

Why do you think these laws even exist? Anyway agree to disagree indeed...

Altiplano, you seem to fashion yourself a regulator. Maybe you should switch careers.

The government sets the decision by allowing this behaviour. You may disagree with is, but thankfully your opinion is not worth skree.

As pointed out by others and with my actual experience, Canadians are all around the world working in aviation and we have gained for that.

If I remember correctly, you work here at air Canada.

If you want to focus your attention on unjust happenings maybe you can point it inward.

The reason why Sunwing has to resort to its business model is because to compete directly against us would be a death blow to the company. They are a privately owned company that is not backed by the government.

Come the next recession, we know who the government will be protecting don't we? Certainly not Sunwing.

So, you might criticize other companies practices which are common the world wide (I in fact know a number of canadians who hit Australia every each year and used to be one of them, the Aussies have always been very welcoming) but in reality if you want then to compete directly against us, you know they will fail and you are just protecting your own job and really don't car about anyone else in reality.

Which just makes you part of the problem.

Typical of us Canadians. We would all flee to the states if we had the chance but damn anyone who comes here.

[Diadem]

LOL... Are you really comparing the needs of protecting life and property with the need for a cheap all inclusive? What's next Canadian soldiers deploying overseas on peacekeeping?

You could argue all day, but you'd be wrong, and opportunities to "live somewhere cool" aren't why we set policy.

Why do you think these laws even exist? Anyway agree to disagree indeed...

So you don't think Americans and Australians are capable of operating water bombing aircraft? That's a pretty bigoted statement. There's something special about Canadian pilots? American and Australian companies are perfectly capable of operating water bombers, but Canadian pilots do it for cheaper. We're takin' their jobs!

[munzil]

It's an unsustainable business model without circumventing Canadian laws. Make it work year round.

17 year contract? Don't know what you're talking about there, had nothing to do with me, but in my opinion it seems a bunch of kids voted with a plan to leave and sold out the next crop.

What laws have been circumvented Altiplano?

You must know that they get waivers to allow TFWs, to operate without Canadian licenses, to operate non Canadian registered aircraft.

Those waivers allow Sunwing to circumvent the laws.
Those waivers are in existence to allow an exception to support temporary or extraordinary measurers.
Instead the abuse of them has become the business model.

you sound like a blast at a party. You know altiplano, foreigners have been flying in different countries around the world for the past 100 years and will continue to do so. None of your whining will change that.

Lots of people think it is a great thing and others who have never lived and worked anywhere else but the country the just happened to be born in - don't think it is. Neither of their opinions matter one bit.

[altiplano]

Oh the weight of all the strawmen and ignorance is crushing me... let alone the personal attacks now!

You guys don't understand and can't even support your own argument.

[Diadem]

Oh the weight of all the strawmen and ignorance is crushing me... let alone the personal attacks now!

You guys don't understand and can't even support your own argument.

Sounds like someone was confronted with his own hypocrisy, and fled in the face of overwhelming reason...

[Handover]

Oh the weight of all the strawmen and ignorance is crushing me... let alone the personal attacks now!

You guys don't understand and can't even support your own argument.

Do you ever listen to yourself?

[altiplano]

Oh the weight of all the strawmen and ignorance is crushing me... let alone the personal attacks now!

You guys don't understand and can't even support your own argument.

Do you ever listen to yourself?

I can't listen to that. It's writing... Do you talk and listen while you write?

Do you have any meaningful contribution? Or just provoke from the sidelines?

This discussion is not personal, I'm not pointing a finger at you or your colleagues as a Sunwing pilot and saying you're doing anything wrong, my issue is with the liberal and inappropriate use of unlicensed foreign workers that a corporation has built their business on against the greater public good.

I'm not making any personal attacks.

Yet all I get back are personal attacks, fallacies, faulty parallelism presented as an argument.

Speaks for itself how little some posters understand it since they can't draw a direct reason to support it...

Getting to live in cool places and isolated international fire fighting contracts, or expats living and working overseas "for the last hundred years" in places without their own supply of pilots to support their industry... Crown Corporation Air Canada is the problem, I'm the problem, I'm an asshole... LOL... not much there...

Fact is before I ever worked at where I work today, I was writing my MP about the illegal labour practises and liberties Sunwing has been afforded, they hired token Canadians and crewed primarily with TFWs... they have been forced to scale that back somewhat now, why? because it's wrong, but nonetheless it continues to a significant extent... and it's inappropriate in a developed nation with a proportionally large industry and supply of labour that is permitted to continue at all.

[flyzam]

[munzil]

and it's inappropriate in a developed nation with a proportionally large industry and supply of labour that is permitted to continue at all.

Altiplano, there have been plenty of good points made so far, and you have dismissed them. Your position is so far built in you refuse to see anyone elses points and stand on the top of the hill shouting out to all that will hear that only your point has any validity and everyone doesn't understand. Are you surprised you have received some personal attacks? (no where did I see you called an asshole)

That aside, the States imports foreign works by the droves with the H1B and also in our industry via the E3 visa - inappropriate or not - people with much more say thank you have have dictated it as appropriate.

You know as well as I do that Canadians would abscond en mass if the yanks opened it up to us. All of them justifying it in some way or another.

I can't speak for you, but I'm sure if you lost your job and it was open, I bet you'd find a way to justify it. It's a global world now.

You've made your point - people disagree with it. Live with it and move on.

[altiplano]

I dismiss them because they are fallacy and don't actually oppose my argument.

Maybe you didn't call me an asshole, but you did directly insult me.

I get that the fact you immigrated here and work here now, and this topic is a sore spot... for the record I don't think you stole anyone's job, I think people like you are what we need in this country, and I think the pressure put on the government and Sunwing to hire more Canadians (or PRs) perhaps before you arrived or were aware of it, is likely the reason you work there today.

It isn't just me, my factual statement aren't made up, and they are the views largely shared by the largest pilot association in the world.

They are also being addressed to an extent in a game of whack-a-mole, as circumvention by your employer is closed, another loop hole is exploited.

Here's some more reading for you:

Some Canadian airlines use foreign pilots to augment their rosters on a seasonal basis. At times, some airlines have had more foreign pilots on their rosters, seasonally, than Canadians. This puts Canadian flightcrew members at a competitive disadvantage right in their own domestic market.

The issue of foreign pilots operating in Canada touches upon several different government departments. It is a complex issue that is not amenable to a single solution. A change of policy and/or procedure in one department may still leave the airline piloting profession vulnerable to the other government departments. Canadian airlines have several approaches or combinations of approaches by which they may employ or otherwise use foreign nationals to fly their aircraft.

The three main avenues are:

1. The Temporary Foreign Worker Program
(TFWP) administered by the Employment and
Social Development Canada (ESDC);

2. Reciprocal agreements administered by
Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC);
and

3. Wet-leases, i.e., providing aircraft with foreign
crews, under the Transport Canada policy
administered by the Canadian Transportation
Agency (CTA).

Temporary Foreign Worker Program

The Temporary Foreign Worker Program was designed to allow foreign workers into Canada, on a temporary basis, when required to fill genuine job shortages. For example, TFWP is used to import seasonal agricultural workers and bring in a very large number of highly skilled workers to fill positions in the oil sands projects.

Airlines seeking to hire foreign pilots under the program formerly stipulated that they sought only pilots type-rated on Boeing 737 Next Generation airplanes. As few unemployed pilots in Canada possessed that particular rating, the airlines were able to show that there was a labour shortage, enabling them to hire foreign pilots
under the program.

Recent positive reforms to the TFWP have eliminated that problem. New guidelines were announced in the government’s 2014 report, “Overhauling the Temporary Foreign Worker Program: Putting Canadians First.” The labour market test that allows employers to bring temporary foreign workers into Canada has been transformed from a Labour Market Opinion (LMO) to a Labour Market Impact Assessment (LMIA). Under the LMIA, employers must provide additional information, such as the number of Canadians who applied for the job, the number of Canadians interviewed, and an explanation of why Canadians were not hired.

The issue of foreign pilots in Canada is explicitly addressed. Beginning July 1, 2014, a number of changes have been implemented for airlines requesting foreign pilots through a LMIA:

Effective July 1, 2014, airlines must:
>> meet the minimum advertising requirements for high-wage occupations, and specify the following criteria in their job posting:
» no more than a maximum of 4,000 flight
hours for a first officer and 5,000 hours for
a captain as required experience;
» possess a valid commercial pilot’s licence;
» require English and/or French language
proficiency;
» include industry-standard medical testing
requirements for commercial flight; and
» state both the legal and common names of
the airline operating in Canada.

Additionally, airlines:
>> must not include as an essential requirement the necessity of holding a type rating;
>> must indicate when training bonds will be applied;
>> must negotiate a transition plan with ESDC documenting the airline’s future efforts to decrease reliance on foreign pilots while increasing its Canadian pilot contingent; and
>> must submit LMIA applications at least three months before the first day of work.

In the first test of these guidelines, the ESDC refused a sun destination airline’s application for temporary foreign worker pilots for the 2015–2016
season. ESDC cited the LMIA, which determined that sufficient recruitment potential existed
in Canada for the hiring of Canadian pilots. Therefore, resort to the TFWP was unnecessary. The labour minister announced in March 2016
that a complete review of the TFWP would be undertaken during the coming year.

Reciprocal Agreements

This program was designed to allow a foreign worker into Canada if that created a reciprocal opportunity for a Canadian to be employed abroad. ALPA discovered that far more foreign pilots were employed in Canada than Canadians were flying abroad under reciprocal agreements—no effective reciprocity existed.

Immigration officers now vet the agreements for appropriate reciprocity. However, they do not enforce reciprocity on a one-to-one basis, but follow guidelines that allow an exchange in the 75 percent range—i.e., for 100 foreign workers in Canada, there should be 75 employment opportunities for Canadians abroad.

Foreign Licence Validation Certificates

A foreign pilot entering Canada with an appropriate work permit must obtain a Canadian licence or have his or her foreign flight crew licences validated by Transport Canada for use on Canadian aircraft.

Under the regulation, Standard 421.07 identifies a number of purposes for which a foreign licence validation certificate (FLVC) may be issued. This list of specific, narrow purposes was intended to restrict the types of operations for which FLVCs may be issued. However, none of the purposes listed correspond to normal airline operations. Thus, the only possible exception is if the minister of transport finds the issuance of an FLVC to be in the “public interest and not likely to affect aviation safety.” That exception should also be read restrictively in light of the language that precedes it. The French version of the CAR standards is even more restrictive, adding words to the effect of “in exceptional circumstances.” Normal, everyday airline operations are the rule, not the exception. Although the minister may issue FLVCs in the public interest, ALPA contends that no public interest is served by issuing FLVCs to foreign flightcrew members operating for airlines in Canada.

Some justification for the issuance of FLVCs has been that Canadian pilots are able to enjoy similar privileges when flying abroad on a seasonal basis. Recently, however, the legitimacy of that rationale has come into question. The EU appears to be in the process of requiring an EU licence after an initial, one-time issuance of an FLVC. In addition, we see an inconsistent application of that regulation between EU countries.In the United States, a newly instituted licensing program is in effect. An applicant for a U.S. air transport pilot licence (ATPL) who currently holds a Canadian ATPL must now take additional instruction from an authorized training provider for the ATP certificate. This illustrates that there is no reciprocal recognition of credentials.

Wet-Leases

Foreign pilots also enter Canada as crewmembers on wet-leased aircraft. The Canadian air transport regulations place no restrictions on the number of aircraft or crews that a Canadian airline can lease, nor on the duration of the lease. The airlines can and do seasonally supplement their fleets with many aircraft and flight crews on wet-leases.In 2013, after consultations with stakeholders, Transport Canada formulated a wet-lease policy that limits the number of aircraft that an airline may wet-lease to 20 percent of the number of Canadian-registered aircraft on the airline’s air operating certificate (AOC) at the time of application.

The Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) administers the wet-lease policy and approves or denies applications. It has now administered the
policy for some time, and the airline industry has experience with the application and the policy’s unintended or anomalous consequences. The policy provides that, for wet-leases of more than 30 days, a number of aircraft equal to 20 percent of the number of Canadian-registered aircraft on the lessee’s AOC at the time of application may be leased from foreign lessors.

However, in its first decision—made just three months after the new policy was announced—the CTA departed from the clear wording of the policy by basing the 20 percent on the number of aircraft that were proposed to be used rather than those on the AOC at time of application. That had the effect of inflating the number of aircraft that could be wet-leased. The minister of transport then issued a directive to the agency instructing it to strictly adhere to the policy language.

Nevertheless, the mischief wrought by the misinterpretation of policy—the inflation of the number of wet-leased aircraft—continues. The air transport regulations (ATRs) at 8.2(2) stipulate that an application must be filed at least 45 days before the first planned flight. Now applicants are filing far in advance of that time frame. For instance, an airline may apply in March, when it uses the most aircraft for southern sun flights, for a wet-lease to be conducted November through April of the following winter.

In this example, the fleet in March is greatly supplemented by seasonally dry-leased foreign aircraft put in Canadian registry. These aircraft are most often flown by foreign pilots obtained through the TFWP; that has the anomalous effect of inflating the number of foreign pilots allowed under wet-leases based on the success of obtaining foreign pilots through the TFWP. \

As noted, Transport Canada formulated the wet-lease policy after consulting with the Canadian airline industry. Any sound public policy must be based on a thorough understanding of the issues and the reasons behind the creation of the policy. That concept has become problematic with CTA decisions.

The backgrounder to Canada’s wet-lease policy, which was issued in August 2013, provides some of the possible rationales for wet-leases:

“Wet-leasing is largely used by air carriers to accommodate unforeseen shortfalls in aircraft availability due to technical or mechanical issues, or to manage aircraft fleets between affiliated companies. It is not uncommon for wet-leased aircraft to be used to acquire aircraft for temporary or seasonal services. Such longer-term wet-leases can provide a cost-efficient way of introducing supplemental capacity into an airline’s fleet in order to meet fluctuations in demand. At the same time, the introduction of seasonal capacity in Canada through wet leasing has implications for the wider Canadian market for international air services.”

The ATRs at 8.2(3) (j) stipulate that the lessee provide an explanation of why the wet-lease is necessary. However, perusing CTA’s decisions reveals that the agency does not provide any rationale other than a rote statement that the applicant “meets the requirements of 8.2 of the ATRs.”

As it stands, it is impossible to ascertain why wet-lease applications are being approved. From a policy perspective, Transport Canada cannot make
a reasoned policy to cover wet-leasing without knowing the purpose for which the applications are granted. The reason for a wet-lease may vary from technical or mechanical issues to seasonal services, but CTA decisions consistently omit that critical aspect.

[SPR]

You know why pay at Swoop is so terrible? Because guys like altiplano advocated against the One List, even though they had no dog in the fight, just to royally fu ck Encore pilots. Now the best way for people from Encore to get to WestJet is to go through Swoop, which means any leverage the union had in improving wages there through empty seats is now gone. Everyone who argued and voted against the One List furthered the decline of pilot WAWCON in Canada due to a short-sighted grudge against Encore. Thanks altiplano! You know what's best for everyone!