ALPA blacklist?

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supersonic
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ALPA blacklist?

Post by supersonic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 7:57 am

I’ve got several friends working mainline WJ and AC and have had a few conversations about the new Swoop thing. I’ve been told that any person taking a job with Swoop will be put on an “unofficial” blacklist by all ALPA member companies so good luck getting another job if you ever leave Swoop or if they close up shop, etc? Is that even a thing?
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Rezy
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Rezy » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:01 am

There is a large thread discussing this in the WestJet sub forum. Yes it appears to be a thing.
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supersonic
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by supersonic » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:02 am

Ok, awesome, I’ll have a look. Thanks.
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Inverted2
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Inverted2 » Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:15 am

ALPA/ACPA don't have a lot of say in the hiring process. You'll have to convince the HR ladies who are too busy looking for liberal arts and basket weaving degrees. :lol:
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mbav8r
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by mbav8r » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:09 pm

So, if ACPA says to the company that they don’t want any pilots from swoop on property, they won’t listen to them. Also, it’s two pilots and one HR person conducting the interview, taking notes, I know how I’d play that card if the company insists on interviewing them.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Zaibatsu » Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:12 pm

I was going to say.

I think this is a scarecrow tactic. Unions are typically bark and no bite.. unless you haven’t paid your protection money... er... union dues.
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Rezy
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Rezy » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:12 pm

Inverted2 wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:15 am
ALPA/ACPA don't have a lot of say in the hiring process. You'll have to convince the HR ladies who are too busy looking for liberal arts and basket weaving degrees. :lol:
This is completely false.
Every airline interview will consist of meeting/interviewing/reviewed by a pilot within that Airline. Their veto power is huge.
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Zaibatsu
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Zaibatsu » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:51 am

But It’s going to sound an awful lot like Russian figure skating judging if he vetos a candidate with time on type or heavy jet experience vs someone off the street with Q or 1900 time, all else the same.

It might even go to the labour board as discrimination if less qualified candidates were hired. Or the media.

Just spitballing... I don’t have a horse in either race.
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by AvifiskAlly » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:28 am

Zaibatsu wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:51 am
But It’s going to sound an awful lot like Russian figure skating judging if he vetos a candidate with time on type or heavy jet experience vs someone off the street with Q or 1900 time, all else the same.

It might even go to the labour board as discrimination if less qualified candidates were hired. Or the media.

Just spitballing... I don’t have a horse in either race.
The people hiring pilots at AC don't care about any blacklist created by a group of pilots they don't care about. The pilots on the board might, maybe, have an off chance of voting against a Swoop pilot once but I doubt they would stick their necks out to even try and if they did they wouldn't get away with it a second time. The legal liability for AC from a discrimination point of view would be jaw-dropping, if anything they would go out of their way to hire Swoop pilots to avoid even looking like they are discriminating based on past employment.

But, to be clear AC does value Q, or 1900 time at Express to be worth more points that heavy jet experience. I know that was just an example but ...
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by LegoMan » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:18 pm

Its just union and pilots that care about this. Management would not want to to expose themselves to a potential discrimination suit when they can hire a bottom feeder who they know has jet time and is willing to take abuse and low pay and be quiet.
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by schnitzel2k3 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:03 am

Once ALPA get's it's dues from the Swoopsters, any threat will be null and void.

S.
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Bede » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:12 pm

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:28 am
The legal liability for AC from a discrimination point of view would be jaw-dropping, if anything they would go out of their way to hire Swoop pilots to avoid even looking like they are discriminating based on past employment.
There is no legal requirement not to discriminate based on "past employment". You can discriminate on many grounds including past employment, education, etc. You just can't discriminate based on prohibited grounds such as sex, religion, etc.
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fish4life
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by fish4life » Fri Apr 06, 2018 8:42 pm

Exactly you essentially cant discriminate on things protected by the charter, where you worked before is not one of those things.
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supersonic
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by supersonic » Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:25 am

For anyone who is looking to upgrade equipment or move on to a better carrier / lifestyle, etc, it's disheartening that your career choice can be held against you. Just doesn't seem right.
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by AvifiskAlly » Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm

supersonic wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:25 am
For anyone who is looking to upgrade equipment or move on to a better carrier / lifestyle, etc, it's disheartening that your career choice can be held against you. Just doesn't seem right.
It can’t be held against you. The two prior posters are only highlighting discrimination under human rights. AC does not discriminate based on past employer which is very clear in the statements made on the portal and website. Could you imagine anything different? Don’t feed the trolls man. AC will not and does not discrinimate based on an ALPA”BS Blacklist” that could make the first few pilots that try pretty rich.
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Rezy
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Rezy » Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm
supersonic wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:25 am
For anyone who is looking to upgrade equipment or move on to a better carrier / lifestyle, etc, it's disheartening that your career choice can be held against you. Just doesn't seem right.
It can’t be held against you. The two prior posters are only highlighting discrimination under human rights. AC does not discriminate based on past employer which is very clear in the statements made on the portal and website. Could you imagine anything different? Don’t feed the trolls man. AC will not and does not discrinimate based on an ALPA”BS Blacklist” that could make the first few pilots that try pretty rich.
Except that the AC pilot union supports the blacklist!
And the odds are pretty good that one of the people reviewing your job application to AC is a union member or leader.
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Bede
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Bede » Sun Apr 08, 2018 6:11 pm

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm
supersonic wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:25 am
For anyone who is looking to upgrade equipment or move on to a better carrier / lifestyle, etc, it's disheartening that your career choice can be held against you. Just doesn't seem right.
AC will not and does not discrinimate based on an ALPA”BS Blacklist” that could make the first few pilots that try pretty rich.
And what would the cause of action be for such a suit?
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by AvifiskAlly » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:08 pm

Rezy wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm
supersonic wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:25 am
For anyone who is looking to upgrade equipment or move on to a better carrier / lifestyle, etc, it's disheartening that your career choice can be held against you. Just doesn't seem right.
It can’t be held against you. The two prior posters are only highlighting discrimination under human rights. AC does not discriminate based on past employer which is very clear in the statements made on the portal and website. Could you imagine anything different? Don’t feed the trolls man. AC will not and does not discrinimate based on an ALPA”BS Blacklist” that could make the first few pilots that try pretty rich.
Except that the AC pilot union supports the blacklist!
And the odds are pretty good that one of the people reviewing your job application to AC is a union member or leader.
Even if the support is there for a blacklist at the troop level at AC they cant simply raise their hand and say don't hire Bob because our union supports a blacklist of our competitors nor would the HR dept who is head is past labour law at AC. The liability is simply too great and given AC has absolutely no dog in the fight there is not a chance in hell the blacklist will stop or even slow down even a single person going to AC. Anyone that says otherwise is fearmongering
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by AvifiskAlly » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:09 pm

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Rezy wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm


It can’t be held against you. The two prior posters are only highlighting discrimination under human rights. AC does not discriminate based on past employer which is very clear in the statements made on the portal and website. Could you imagine anything different? Don’t feed the trolls man. AC will not and does not discrinimate based on an ALPA”BS Blacklist” that could make the first few pilots that try pretty rich.
Except that the AC pilot union supports the blacklist!
And the odds are pretty good that one of the people reviewing your job application to AC is a union member or leader.
Even if the support is there for a blacklist at the troop level at AC they cant simply raise their hand and say don't hire Bob because our union supports a blacklist of our competitors nor would the HR dept who's head person is past labour law at AC. The liability is simply too great and given AC has absolutely no dog in the fight there is not a chance in hell the blacklist will stop or even slow down even a single person going to AC. Anyone that says otherwise is fearmongering
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Rezy
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by Rezy » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 pm

AvifiskAlly wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Rezy wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:13 pm


It can’t be held against you. The two prior posters are only highlighting discrimination under human rights. AC does not discriminate based on past employer which is very clear in the statements made on the portal and website. Could you imagine anything different? Don’t feed the trolls man. AC will not and does not discrinimate based on an ALPA”BS Blacklist” that could make the first few pilots that try pretty rich.
Except that the AC pilot union supports the blacklist!
And the odds are pretty good that one of the people reviewing your job application to AC is a union member or leader.
Even if the support is there for a blacklist at the troop level at AC they cant simply raise their hand and say don't hire Bob because our union supports a blacklist of our competitors nor would the HR dept who is head is past labour law at AC. The liability is simply too great and given AC has absolutely no dog in the fight there is not a chance in hell the blacklist will stop or even slow down even a single person going to AC. Anyone that says otherwise is fearmongering
The AC union put out a letter of support for the blacklist. That was done by the union leaders, not “troop” level. I think I’ve made my point over and over again. The person reviewing your application at AC is very likely to support the blacklist. Because managers don’t sit in interview rooms at airlines, you don’t sit across from the chief pilot, you sit across from HR and a pilot.
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by dialdriver » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:09 pm

Rezy wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Rezy wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm


Except that the AC pilot union supports the blacklist!
And the odds are pretty good that one of the people reviewing your job application to AC is a union member or leader.
Even if the support is there for a blacklist at the troop level at AC they cant simply raise their hand and say don't hire Bob because our union supports a blacklist of our competitors nor would the HR dept who is head is past labour law at AC. The liability is simply too great and given AC has absolutely no dog in the fight there is not a chance in hell the blacklist will stop or even slow down even a single person going to AC. Anyone that says otherwise is fearmongering
The AC union put out a letter of support for the blacklist. That was done by the union leaders, not “troop” level. I think I’ve made my point over and over again. The person reviewing your application at AC is very likely to support the blacklist. Because managers don’t sit in interview rooms at airlines, you don’t sit across from the chief pilot, you sit across from HR and a pilot.
The pilot and HR person ask questions from a script and write out your answers. That information is then deidentified and sent to the board for a decision. The interviewers do not decide your fate.

That Air Canada offered an interview to a Swoop pilot ought to tell you they don't care.
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AvifiskAlly
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by AvifiskAlly » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:43 am

Rezy wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 pm
AvifiskAlly wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Rezy wrote:
Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:08 pm


Except that the AC pilot union supports the blacklist!
And the odds are pretty good that one of the people reviewing your job application to AC is a union member or leader.
Even if the support is there for a blacklist at the troop level at AC they cant simply raise their hand and say don't hire Bob because our union supports a blacklist of our competitors nor would the HR dept who is head is past labour law at AC. The liability is simply too great and given AC has absolutely no dog in the fight there is not a chance in hell the blacklist will stop or even slow down even a single person going to AC. Anyone that says otherwise is fearmongering
The AC union put out a letter of support for the blacklist. That was done by the union leaders, not “troop” level. I think I’ve made my point over and over again. The person reviewing your application at AC is very likely to support the blacklist. Because managers don’t sit in interview rooms at airlines, you don’t sit across from the chief pilot, you sit across from HR and a pilot.

My point is that the union at AC Put out a generic letter of support but its members including those that interview do not have a dog in the fight and are not in the least invested in the cause. As a company AC has less than zero concern or respect for the blacklist or its creators and no one involved in hiring will in any way shape or form will bat an eye at hiring a Swoop pilot. They wont think about a blacklist, acknowledge that one exists or care that it does. The line pilot at AC aka “troops” don’t give a rats ass about your blacklist. Bottom line is that the letter by ACPA was a customary show of solidarity never intended to be anything with any operational or functional meaning.
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Re: ALPA blacklist?

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:38 pm

This exactly!
And the guys going to Swoop (left seat anyway) likely have no desire to even go to AC and sit right seat to a 25yr old Captain while making a whopping $45k per year. Blacklist means nothing to them...even if it had teeth, which it doesn’t.
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