DC-3 / C-46 Ramp Slave

[TheRealMcCoy]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job. If you want to fly a C46 or DC3, great. If you don't have the hours yet to qualify, go get a flying job and reapply as a direct entry FO or Captain. You'll have gained way more valuable experience than doing ramp/flight following jobs.

Lol and lol.

[FL007]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job. If you want to fly a C46 or DC3, great. If you don't have the hours yet to qualify, go get a flying job and reapply as a direct entry FO or Captain. You'll have gained way more valuable experience than doing ramp/flight following jobs.

Lol and lol.

You think ramp work gives you way more valuable experience flying an aircraft than actually flying an aircraft. Should give the keys to the ground guys loading my bags on those 50kt days.

[SkySailor]

I've done a number of "boring" jobs over the years. My mistake perhaps. However, if Jazz were to call me, I'd consider myself to be the luckiest SOB on the face of this earth. If the Jazz job became "boring" enough to require a lobotomy, I've got my own plane to bring back the smile.......
Sometimes we don't know how good we got it, till it's gone.
Jus' sayin......

[C.W.E.]

We all have different likes and dislikes SkySailor and as our flying career gets longer and longer our ideas of what we like and dislike changes.

Early in my career I also thought that flying for an airlne would be the ultimate job but as time passed I found it just plain boring.

The only flying job I never got tired of was aerial application but that is just my own preference and it may not be all that great for other pilots. The problem with aerial application is the season is so short.

Now that I am retired I never get the desire to go back to flying and I prefer to drive rather than go through the agony of flying by airlines with all the time it takes to even get on the airplane..

[C-GGGQ]

No doubt . that different people will want different career paths. Aerial application sounds (and looks from when I see it around here) awesome. Like you said Season too short though. Airlines won't be for everyone and if you want to be a bush float operator then your path will be different than someone with their sights set on AC. However, I think that stating taking a job as quasi first officer on a dc3 for $28k plus mileage with undefined extra duties is far superior to flying the dash at Jazz if you had both options in front you as the other poster says is ignorant and just to stir the pot. Now a guy with 200tt is not being called by jazz though. So he's gotta decide if this job is going to be his ticket or what other options he has. Like I said it's not a TERRIBLE option. Just kind of dishonest in the job ad.

For the lower time guys considering the official word from Buffalo is 28,500 plus mileage and checkouts are coming in usually a week. Maybe two. People are on their second or third type by month 3. Dc3 or c46 to start with Elektra and King Air up for grabs later.

[shimmydampner]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job.

While that statement seems intuitive on the surface, and may well be true most times for most people, it's not true 100% of the time. I think it makes the basic assumption that most people make, that the airlines is the ultimate goal. In that case, it's probably true 100% of the time. However, let's take a hypothetical kid from Toronto, just out of flight school. She is gifted both in terms of intelligence and raw flying ability. She graduates top of her class and as such has the opportunity to be a part of a cadet program and go directly to the right seat of a Q400. However, she wants to be a turbo Otter pilot in the Yukon and after some research, has found an opportunity to join a company that has a fleet of small bush aircraft that will allow her to progress to her ultimate goal of turbo Otter pilot. The job would have her start out doing a little bit of everything. Answering phones, catching planes at the dock, helping other pilots load and fuel, as well as getting eased in to flight ops on the 172 on flights when the conditions are suitable. Being from Toronto, she's hasn't spent much time in small towns, the north, or the bush. She doesn't know a bung wrench from a wobble pump. But she's looking for exactly that sort of adventure and life experience. So, should she get flying right away, in hopes that all the right seat 705 airline time will parlay itself into a direct entry turbo Otter pilot job, or should she tough it out, starting at the bottom, learning the ropes?

[C.W.E.]

Getting back to the ground work part of any flying job when I got my start in the aerial application business I started with te company in the winter working with the mechanics on the fleet of airplanes they operated getting them ready for the next season.

They had two J3 Cubs two Super Cubs and four Stearmans.

A Stearman with that big P&W Radial is just awesome.

That winter I found out I loved working on them and as the years passed I found fixing aircraft was more challenging and interesting than flying them.

I still do, I have my garage set up as an airplane building space and am starting on another project to keep me young and active.

[SkySailor]

She should take the Q400 job. Stable, and lots of potential for the future. That's reality.
Then she should build a Super Cub clone and put it on floats for her spare time. That's fantasy. And it's attainable without sacrificing the stability of the Q400

[digits_]

No matter what your eventual flying career goal is, ANY FLYING job will prepare you better for said goal than any ramp job.

While that statement seems intuitive on the surface, and may well be true most times for most people, it's not true 100% of the time. I think it makes the basic assumption that most people make, that the airlines is the ultimate goal. In that case, it's probably true 100% of the time. However, let's take a hypothetical kid from Toronto, just out of flight school. She is gifted both in terms of intelligence and raw flying ability. She graduates top of her class and as such has the opportunity to be a part of a cadet program and go directly to the right seat of a Q400. However, she wants to be a turbo Otter pilot in the Yukon and after some research, has found an opportunity to join a company that has a fleet of small bush aircraft that will allow her to progress to her ultimate goal of turbo Otter pilot. The job would have her start out doing a little bit of everything. Answering phones, catching planes at the dock, helping other pilots load and fuel, as well as getting eased in to flight ops on the 172 on flights when the conditions are suitable. Being from Toronto, she's hasn't spent much time in small towns, the north, or the bush. She doesn't know a bung wrench from a wobble pump. But she's looking for exactly that sort of adventure and life experience. So, should she get flying right away, in hopes that all the right seat 705 airline time will parlay itself into a direct entry turbo Otter pilot job, or should she tough it out, starting at the bottom, learning the ropes?

In your example the 705 job, or the 172 job if it involves a significant amount of flying.

Learning how a pump works or how to load a plane can be done in a week or less. No need to underpay her for 6 months to get cheap labor. She will be an fo on the otter first anyway, so the company should, ideally, put her in there as a form of advanced instruction.

[shimmydampner]

So are you looking at this strictly through your own lens and preconceptions or do you honestly believe that the airlines is the ultimate, and everything else is second best? Do you seriously believe that everyone should either aspire to that, or deny their aspirations for $37k/yr? If you seriously believe that, I can't see any possibility for a reasonable discussion. You would essentially be saying we should all be mindless drones, one way or another. I can't imagine what a depressing 40+ year career that would be.
I'm going to guess you haven't been in aviation all that long if you think the airline life is "stable." Just because the getting is good now and you've never known anything else, it wasn't always this way, and there's nothing guaranteeing that it will stay that way. This is from just 10 years ago: https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-air ... 0120080702
Things look good now. Let's hope they stay that way. Until then, there's plenty of room and opportunity for most everyone to do whatever it is they want to do, whether it's 18 nights a month in hotels or a summer in a cabin by a lake.

I'm sorry, a single Otter FO? What would be the purpose of this? Our example assumes she will start on the 172. I'm not aware of too many companies that operate single Otters two crew. I am, however, aware of a number of companies that start pilots on small Cessna singles.
So you're of the opinion that a 20 year old city kid could, after a week on the job, be sent off alone into the bush, fully equipped for whatever situation might confront them? You really believe that there is that little to such a job?

[mixturerich]

Valid points from both sides. I don’t think it’s fair to shit on Buffalo, however, it’s not fair to shit on 705 airline flying either.

Personally I did the whole ramp to flying thing up north and a mix in between, and it helped toughen my skin, but otherwise I don’t use any of the ramp knowledge or “skills” at the regional airline job I have now.

Ask any old airline pilot and they will tell you seniority is everything, and this can’t be overstated, so the advice for those wanting to fly 705 is to get to the company you want as fast as you can. Especially because right now, you’ll have people filling the seniority list below you quicker than ever. You never know when the music is gonna stop, some idiot bombs a plane, epidemic, recession, etc. Your buddies may or may not be facing layoffs at a regional but at least they’re not stuck loading a belly pod and pulling engine tents in -40 for a now indefinite number of years because some crusty old 703 guy on avcanada told them it would be worth it to become a better pilot. Just like there are a some bitter regional guys that didn’t go to the majors, there are also bitter 703 guys that didn’t go the regionals, by choice or maybe not. Either way, often these guys will passionately defend their career position, while shitting on the alternative to no end. I can even picture their hot red faces of anger and resentment as they read this.

As far as the “mindless, boring, A to B, planes fly themselves” airline flying perspective goes, I personally feel like that is a bullshit way to frame it. Most commercial aviation is about picking as straight a line as possible anyways. It’s supposed to be boring and uneventful - that’s what makes it safe. Personally, I can handfly a Q400 whenever I want and I fucking love it, or I can chill and keep the autopilot on down low. At least I have the option. I don’t miss tossing bags, scrubbing planes, checking oil, hand de-icing, filing flight plans, loading freight, dealing with passengers, or hand flying it straight and level for hours. Sure, sometimes I miss the wildness of the 703 flying but in the end it’s not worth it for me with all the other bullshit one has to deal with, and I ultimately feel better working in a vastly safer environment.

I might have rambled on but in response to this thread discussion, now would be most ideal time to work for Buffalo as there so much movement going on. You may not be exclusively a pilot but it sounds like you’ll fly a lot, on a cool old airplane to boot that will undoubtedly teach you great hands and feet. If you get checked out on different birds too, even better. Get it while it’s hot.

[digits_]

So are you looking at this strictly through your own lens and preconceptions or do you honestly believe that the airlines is the ultimate, and everything else is second best? Do you seriously believe that everyone should either aspire to that, or deny their aspirations for $37k/yr? If you seriously believe that, I can't see any possibility for a reasonable discussion. You would essentially be saying we should all be mindless drones, one way or another. I can't imagine what a depressing 40+ year career that would be.
I'm going to guess you haven't been in aviation all that long if you think the airline life is "stable." Just because the getting is good now and you've never known anything else, it wasn't always this way, and there's nothing guaranteeing that it will stay that way. This is from just 10 years ago: https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-air ... 0120080702
Things look good now. Let's hope they stay that way. Until then, there's plenty of room and opportunity for most everyone to do whatever it is they want to do, whether it's 18 nights a month in hotels or a summer in a cabin by a lake.

I'm sorry, a single Otter FO? What would be the purpose of this? Our example assumes she will start on the 172. I'm not aware of too many companies that operate single Otters two crew. I am, however, aware of a number of companies that start pilots on small Cessna singles.
So you're of the opinion that a 20 year old city kid could, after a week on the job, be sent off alone into the bush, fully equipped for whatever situation might confront them? You really believe that there is that little to such a job?

Not sure where you get it from that I consider airlines to be the ultimate goal. I'm not even trying to get into the airlines myself. However, as stated before, ANY flying job would help develop your skills as a pilot more than any ground position you could find.

For some reason I thought we were talking about twin otters. In case of a single otter, a 172 or 206 progression might be better. But yes, you hire them, give them some company indoc, and send them off in the bush. What useful info about flying the plane are they going to learn by loading fuel drums washing planes and flight following other planes? Not much. Do a few hours of line indoc with them at low level in marginal weather and simulated emergencies, and that's how they will get trained.

If you hire a 250 hour pilot, and you train them for 10 hours, eventually you are going to have to send a 260 hour pilot on their first commercial flight. No point in dragging it out and letting their flying skills degrade and turn them into master airplane cleaners before you send them out 6 months later. No 260 hour pilot will be fully equipped to deal with whatever situation they will encounter. You just hope they have learned enough in those 260 hours to come up with something vaguely resembling a solution.

Just because companies get away with it, and they prefer to do it like this for cheap labour or to have a pool of pilots available if someone quits, doesn't mean it is actually necessary to do so.

[TheRealMcCoy]

Oh my fcuk this is redundant, someone please just bury the horse before it gets beat to a slushy mess.

edit: can't even fucking swear, @#$!.

edit: oh, there we go. whoopie