Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

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RVR6000
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by RVR6000 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 am

FL320 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:48 pm
When I was at Sunwing, one Captain (less than 10 years in the company) showed me his last T4...slightly above 300k. This guy and many others were laughing when I was asking if they were interested in AC.

The top scale captain rate at Sunwing according to the contract posted is $198.82. To get 300k at that rate the overtime structure must be quite lucrative and this captain is doing 100+ hr months throughout the year.

It’s like a few rouge 767 captains pulling over $400k. It’s not the norm and these people are burning themselves out. I know a guy who did over $60k in a month, also worked 23 days that month.

Compare posted rates at 80 hours a month. Both Transat and Sunwing rates are equivalent or less than AC narrow body captain rates.
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Last edited by RVR6000 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

ant_321
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:28 am

RVR6000 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 am
FL320 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:48 pm
When I was at Sunwing, one Captain (less than 10 years in the company) showed me his last T4...slightly above 300k. This guy and many others were laughing when I was asking if they were interested in AC.

The top scale captain rate at Sunwing according to the contract posted is $198.82. To get 300k at that rate the overtime structure must be quite lucrative and this captain is doing 100+ hr months throughout the year.

It’s like a few rouge 767 pulling over $400k. It’s not the norm and these people burning themselves out.
Overtime is very lucrative at SWG. I would think nearly everyone at the top of the pay scale is bringing in $250k+. The highest T4 I've seen was close to 400.
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munzil
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by munzil » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 pm

RVR6000 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 am
FL320 wrote:
Sun Dec 02, 2018 2:48 pm
When I was at Sunwing, one Captain (less than 10 years in the company) showed me his last T4...slightly above 300k. This guy and many others were laughing when I was asking if they were interested in AC.

The top scale captain rate at Sunwing according to the contract posted is $198.82. To get 300k at that rate the overtime structure must be quite lucrative and this captain is doing 100+ hr months throughout the year.

It’s like a few rouge 767 captains pulling over $400k. It’s not the norm and these people are burning themselves out. I know a guy who did over $60k in a month, also worked 23 days that month.

Compare posted rates at 80 hours a month. Both Transat and Sunwing rates are equivalent or less than AC narrow body captain rates.
This is normal for a good proportion of Sunwing Captains who will spend 6 months in europe with all the extras thrown in there. Also if they take a winter base in Canada - more money there. No overtime required.
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:43 pm

munzil wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 pm
This is normal for a good proportion of Sunwing Captains who will spend 6 months in europe with all the extras thrown in there. Also if they take a winter base in Canada - more money there. No overtime required.
Do I understand you right?

$300K+ is normal for Captains at Sunwing?
Without OT?
Do you mean including expenses, etc?
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FL320
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by FL320 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:47 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:43 pm
munzil wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 pm
This is normal for a good proportion of Sunwing Captains who will spend 6 months in europe with all the extras thrown in there. Also if they take a winter base in Canada - more money there. No overtime required.
Do I understand you right?

$300K+ is normal for Captains at Sunwing?
Without OT?
Do you mean including expenses, etc?
Like they were saying..one of the best kept secret :wink:
And I will add a side note: I often flew with foreign Captains at Sunwing (not saying I agree with this practice) but they are also making very good money. Next time you seat next to one of these guys in the crew bus, don't believe they are cheap pilots from Europe, these guys are making more money than most of us (including AC Captains)
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Last edited by FL320 on Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

dhc#
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by dhc# » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:52 pm

And how well can FO's do ???
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munzil
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by munzil » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:53 pm

FL320 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:47 pm
Like they were saying..one of the best kept secret :wink:
Very few Captain's at Sunwing would want to go to AC and only a few junior FO's. We all want something different in life, and for many AC is far from the ideal. Hell, many corporate pilots would never work schedule, many Cargo Pilots love not dealing with Passengers and Security, with Weekends off and only 7 flight days a month,

Horses for courses. it's not a competition.
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Handover
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Handover » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:56 pm

dhc# wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:52 pm
And how well can FO's do ???
Base salary is about $56k. extra 6k for training if you are Montreal base. You can look at about 8k extra a month in per diem (tax free) if you take a european base up to 6 months.

1.5k extra, apartment and a car for winter basing. Overtime is 2x.

Could possibly do 100k for first year. Well over 100k with basing from second year

Lets not forget, a lot of time at home.
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Last edited by Handover on Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

FL320
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by FL320 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:58 pm

dhc,

Year 2 FO I made 96 000$ few years ago, add some per diems (maybe 2000$ as I didn't go to Europe), some overtime at x2 every months
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:05 pm

FL320 wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 1:47 pm
altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:43 pm
munzil wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 12:25 pm
This is normal for a good proportion of Sunwing Captains who will spend 6 months in europe with all the extras thrown in there. Also if they take a winter base in Canada - more money there. No overtime required.
Do I understand you right?

$300K+ is normal for Captains at Sunwing?
Without OT?
Do you mean including expenses, etc?
Like they were saying..one of the best kept secret :wink:
Good discussion. But I'm having a hard time understanding how you get to $300K without OT at under $200/hr...

I think we're getting away from a base comparison if you want to start adding per diems and OT...

I mean AC has OT too, 1.5-2.5x depending, good per diems - esp overseas, stock match, pension, profit share, good benefits paid by employer... how much does family dental & extended health cost at TS or SW? Disability? etc...

As has been mentioned, for those inclined... there are some 320 FOs doing +200K, some LCC CAs doing +400K, the motivated can do it, or close to...
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munzil
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by munzil » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:12 pm

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:05 pm
Good discussion. But I'm having a hard time understanding how you get to $300K without OT at under $200/hr...
I think we're getting away from a base comparison if you want to start adding per diems and OT...
I mean AC has OT too, 1.5-2.5x depending, good per diems - esp overseas, stock match, pension, profit share, good benefits paid by employer... how much does family dental & extended health cost at TS or SW? Disability? etc...
As has been mentioned, for those inclined... there are some 320 FOs doing +200K, some LCC CAs doing +400K, the motivated can do it, or close to...
It's not always about money, I know many corporate pilots that earn a ton, but are away 25 days a month. Everyone knows that AC probably has the best deal in Canada. They also pay new pilots probably by far the lowest mainline wage in the world.

Nothing to be too proud of there. Just a big fish in a small pond that throws its weight around far too much.
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FL320
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by FL320 » Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:15 pm

I mean AC has OT too, 1.5-2.5x depending, good per diems - esp overseas, stock match, pension, profit share, good benefits paid by employer... how much does family dental & extended health cost at TS or SW? Disability? etc...
Air Transat pay dental and health costs and the short term disability. We pay the long term disability. I think we get net 66% of our gross salary during 10 years (and as a backup I pay for a private LoL insurance that covers 500k). They pay for all expenses related to the job, passport, medical, uniform cleaning, etc., moving expenses to another base (and hotel, notary, lease cancellation, public utilities, etc.), we get meal on board.
Pension: I put 5% of my salary in my RRSP and they put 7%. Plus Profit share at the end of the year.
Work environment is excellent (I had the same feeling at Sunwing - but not at Jazz; which is I suppose like AC) we’re not just a number and I am not afraid to call my chief pilot or any supervisor at 2 am if needed. Very nice people here. Of course it's not all perfect and some things need to be improved, but would I leave to go to AC for just very few extra bucks on the hourly rate and few extra benefits? no, sorry but it's not worth it. However I would probably leave for AA or the likes :rolleyes:
I have the feeling TS is moving to the right direction, a lot of positive energy at the main office.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:56 am

altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:05 pm
Good discussion. But I'm having a hard time understanding how you get to $300K without OT at under $200/hr...
Pay goes to just over $200/hr next year for Captains. Add in natural block growth due to de-icing, delays, etc you're now probably close to $210,000. If you go over 90 hours per month, now that's paid at time an a half, which is easy to do in the winter. I budget $5000 per year for per-diems, so now you're at $215,000. So, that would be my guess at a BASE salary for a top-scale Captain, with no OT, working 15ish days/month in the winter, and 5-10 in the summer.

Now, add in a 6 month deployment to Europe and now you're close to $250,000 (The company pays for your flights to get you and your family there and back, an apartment and rental car while you're there). If you're a training Captain, add in that extra income and you could be close to $300,000 without doing a day of OT.

To get close to $400,000, you'd need to Deploy for 6 months, maybe do a summer domestic deployment, do the long pairings that get the most per-diems, be a training Captain and do a lot of OT. It's doable, but you're away from home a lot. Some guys don't even have a permanent home.. they just go 6 months in Europe and 6 months deployed in Canada, with all lodging and cars paid for by the company.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:22 pm

DHC-1 Jockey wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:56 am
altiplano wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:05 pm
Good discussion. But I'm having a hard time understanding how you get to $300K without OT at under $200/hr...
Pay goes to just over $200/hr next year for Captains. Add in natural block growth due to de-icing, delays, etc you're now probably close to $210,000. If you go over 90 hours per month, now that's paid at time an a half, which is easy to do in the winter. I budget $5000 per year for per-diems, so now you're at $215,000. So, that would be my guess at a BASE salary for a top-scale Captain, with no OT, working 15ish days/month in the winter, and 5-10 in the summer.

Now, add in a 6 month deployment to Europe and now you're close to $250,000 (The company pays for your flights to get you and your family there and back, an apartment and rental car while you're there). If you're a training Captain, add in that extra income and you could be close to $300,000 without doing a day of OT.

To get close to $400,000, you'd need to Deploy for 6 months, maybe do a summer domestic deployment, do the long pairings that get the most per-diems, be a training Captain and do a lot of OT. It's doable, but you're away from home a lot. Some guys don't even have a permanent home.. they just go 6 months in Europe and 6 months deployed in Canada, with all lodging and cars paid for by the company.
Thanks. So $210K for a top scale Captain doing up to 90 hours/month, 10-15 days per month...

To get to $300K - 90 hours+/month, Training Captain uplift, included living expenses to be away from home 6 months/year, and per diems...

Not knocking either, but it doesn't sound like the "normal" situation for the "good proportion" of Captains as was stated. Not knocking it, $200-300K is very good and I wouldn't be looking to go to the bottom of any list either... just trying get actual comparable situations.
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ant_321
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 » Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:38 pm

Everyone at SWG makes more than their posted salary. The nature of our business means being super busy a few months a year. For the couple busy months it’s common to be blocked at over 100hrs in the original sched. So “forced OT” I guess you could say.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by DHC-1 Jockey » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:56 pm

altiplano wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 1:22 pm
Not knocking either, but it doesn't sound like the "normal" situation for the "good proportion" of Captains as was stated. Not knocking it, $200-300K is very good and I wouldn't be looking to go to the bottom of any list either... just trying get actual comparable situations.
In fact, $215,000-$250,000 would be considered “normal” for a top captain I would think.

Deployments to Europe are very popular due to the per-diems and different type of flying, and this year I couldn’t even hold a deployment. So I stayed in Canada and worked 5 days per month.

No complaints!
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by pilotidentity » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:00 am

No, not everyone wants to work at Air Canada. Hard to believe eh? I wouldn't mind the pay cheque and benefits of the wide body captains but the type of flying isn't for a lot of us. I have a good book at home about a bush pilot that ended up going into the airlines in his 40s and became Captain on the 747, which was a brand new airplane at the time. His airline flying is described in the last PARAGRAPH of the book.
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:44 am

pilotidentity wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:00 am
His airline flying is described in the last PARAGRAPH of the book.
Perfect. Uneventful. Easy. Enjoy the rest of your life.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by iflyforpie » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:54 am

altiplano wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:44 am
[quote=pilotidentity post_id=<a href="tel:1061832">1061832</a> time=<a href="tel:1544598027">1544598027</a> user_id=29211]
His airline flying is described in the last PARAGRAPH of the book.
Perfect. Uneventful. Easy. Enjoy the rest of your life.
[/quote]

As I enter my 40s, I find I identify far more with “uneventful”. In the words of Danny Glover, “I’m getting too old for this s***.”
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Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

pilotidentity
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by pilotidentity » Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:09 pm

Ha ha, that about sums it up. I hear yeah :)
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Thu Dec 27, 2018 2:26 am

Recently dropped my resume online-is anyone else having issues receiving the email that’s supposed to tell you if the application has been received successfully or not? Just sent an email to Tech. What is the newest hiring outlook at AC? Are they still running GS I definitely for the forseable future?
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by skypirate88 » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:40 am

I can't help with the tech question. As far as hiring is concerned, yes, the plan is to continue running courses. The last bid (which was forward looking 12 months) showed 400+ vacancies. I've also heard unsubstantiated rumours of an additional 300 or so needed to accomodate for the incoming duty regulations.

Good luck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by dumbbell daddy » Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:34 am

Sunwing is a place where after a few years, you could make/work as much or as little as you want. They're pilot's junior to me, that make way more then I do. Also when you deploy it's tax free cash, that's why they're so popular. I'm not knocking AC or WJ. I don't really know much about Transat. If you average out dollar for dollar and days worked, I think SWG is the best Canadian NB gig going these days.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by fruitloops » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:42 pm

payrates.JPG
payrates.JPG (339.4 KiB) Viewed 640 times
I think there are 2-3 WJ (not including Encore), SW and TA pilots in every AC ground school but barely any leaving AC - The WJ/SW/TA ones that I have spoken with say that it's the potential of greater pay/pension and greater job security that attracts them to AC. It's not how you start but how you finish!
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by C-GGGQ » Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:58 pm

Looks like you only have that "potential" at AC if you're WB skipper though. If you end up 320 your whole time there for example. Top rate at AC, SW, and AT are within a dollar or two. So the question is, are you willing wait (and in some cases young enough) to think you'll see top tier left seat on the 777 for the last few years of your career.
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