Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

20+ years ago nepotism was not uncommon... no doubt... at probably every airline... and in other industries not just airlines/pilots...

But that was 20+ years ago.

Equality of outcome?

Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

A computer searches applications from the thousands to pull for interviews.
Interviewees are de-identified and only a number when they make hiring selections.
Age/race/sex/family aren't scored or reflected beyond an internal reference which adds to a score.

The new hire classes reflect that I think... mostly white men still, by far, which are surely still the largest demographic in our profession...

I mean, despite the tone of his post and insinuation of less deserving pilots hired, floating hog in fact had two offers from AC for course dates... so clearly opportunities are offered...

But things don't always happen in an order we perceive is correct... ie. most experience first called...

I remember similarly, I watched several of my FO's, not too far out of flight school and still in their first real job, getting interviews and getting hired while I kept trudging on and applying... there are lots of guys at AC senior to me, much younger, and with less experience or time in the industry.

If I compare their golden career to my years of trying to navigate Canadian aviation and get an AC interview it might piss me off... I wondered if there was a problem with my resume formatting, or font or something at the time... why wasn't I getting called?

But the fact is that AC isn't perfect, the computer mis-reads some applications, maybe not enough "keywords", or an HR drone screws up another one... I know one guy whose file fell behind a desk and held him back a couple years by the time someone found it... and it doesn't happen in the order we perceive it should... and it's not personal... all you can do is accept it's a big machine and it is what it is...

And it is a pretty good job...
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ant_321
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 »

altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:10 pm 20+ years ago nepotism was not uncommon... no doubt... at probably every airline... and in other industries not just airlines/pilots...

But that was 20+ years ago.

Equality of outcome?

Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

A computer searches applications from the thousands to pull for interviews.
Interviewees are de-identified and only a number when they make hiring selections.
Age/race/sex/family aren't scored or reflected beyond an internal reference which adds to a score.

The new hire classes reflect that I think... mostly white men still, by far, which are surely still the largest demographic in our profession...

I mean, despite the tone of his post and insinuation of less deserving pilots hired, floating hog in fact had two offers from AC for course dates... so clearly opportunities are offered...

But things don't always happen in an order we perceive is correct... ie. most experience first called...

I remember similarly, I watched several of my FO's, not too far out of flight school and still in their first real job, getting interviews and getting hired while I kept trudging on and applying... there are lots of guys at AC senior to me, much younger, and with less experience or time in the industry.

If I compare their golden career to my years of trying to navigate Canadian aviation and get an AC interview it might piss me off... I wondered if there was a problem with my resume formatting, or font or something at the time... why wasn't I getting called?

But the fact is that AC isn't perfect, the computer mis-reads some applications, maybe not enough "keywords", or an HR drone screws up another one... I know one guy whose file fell behind a desk and held him back a couple years by the time someone found it... and it doesn't happen in the order we perceive it should... and it's not personal... all you can do is accept it's a big machine and it is what it is...

And it is a pretty good job...
I’m not trying to be confrontational, just curious. If there is no preference given to people of minorities then why is it one of the first questions in the application?

I am a 737 captain and have been applying for years with a good internal reference (manager) and can not get an interview. But I don’t take it personally. They own the airplanes and they can hire who they want. Plus the 6 figure paycut with a young family would be quite tough.

Sometimes I feel AC HR draws names from a hat. I’ve known some great guys get turned down and some morons get hired. I personally know someone who was PFO’d by nearly all the regionals in Canada (including the ac ones) and was hired a main line a couple months later.

In the end AC is the best airline job in Canada (eventually) but there are other great options. My application is still in at AC and if they call I’ll probably go but if they don’t I am quite happy where I am.
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Lightchop
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Lightchop »

altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:10 pm

Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

Dr. Jordan Peterson uses this phrase a lot when discussing modern feminism and I tend to agree with a lot of what he says. If a woman is more qualified than me for the job, by all means hire them. But they should never be considered for a position (including minorities) with lower qualifications just due to their race or gender. But then again I'm just a privileged white male so what do I know.
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Remember, that portal is for all applications to AC for all positions. Not only pilots.

The Federal Employment Equity requires federal employers to make reasonable accommodation to people applying with disabilities or cultural differences. It doesn't direct the resume to the top of the pile, but seeks to remove barriers that might hinder an applicant.

I'm not a fan of the PC lip service... but what are you going to do... looking at the courses it isn't all the lesbian, half first nation, francophones getting hired... although it's a popular conception it seems... and I'm sure some do get hired...

Breakdown on most courses seems majority anglo white guys, followed by franco white guys, then visible minority men, then a woman or two... my guess, while likely not exact, it's not far off the demographic entering the profession.
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Lightchop wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:10 pm

Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

Dr. Jordan Peterson uses this phrase a lot when discussing modern feminism and I tend to agree with a lot of what he says. If a woman is more qualified than me for the job, by all means hire them. But they should never be considered for a position (including minorities) with lower qualifications just due to their race or gender. But then again I'm just a privileged white male so what do I know.
Couldn't agree more.
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groundpilot
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot »

Assuming this isn't a post from a troll...

From my experience I have yet to meet anyone who isn't happy to be at AC. Some people are a bit disgruntled from things that happened in the past but you won't hear anyone wishing they were at WJ, SW or AT. I promise you that.

Every ground school has WJ, SW and AT pilots coming to AC. The proof is in the pudding.

The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
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ant_321
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 »

groundpilot wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:50 pm Assuming this isn't a post from a troll...

From my experience I have yet to meet anyone who isn't happy to be at AC. Some people are a bit disgruntled from things that happened in the past but you won't hear anyone wishing they were at WJ, SW or AT. I promise you that.

Every ground school has WJ, SW and AT pilots coming to AC. The proof is in the pudding.

The outlook for AC has never been better. I am at 2.5 years seniority, work 9 days a month, never work a weekend unless I want, and have XMas and New Years off this year. I see the world in a modern state of the art machine, have proper crew rest facilities onboard which alleviate fatigue (I literally sleep half my 80 hrs away in the bunk each month), stay in 5 stars hotels, and the only draw back is I am at probably around $80k per year. But that number is only going up, and up quickly. And I have never been based in Toronto.
I agree with what most of what you said but I personally know 2 guys who wish they never left Sunwing. I’m sure in a few years they may not regret their decision but for now the 100-150k paycut is making their lives pretty miserable.
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groundpilot
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot »

Well I don't know all +4000 pilots at AC but I can say everyone I fly with, are very happy.

Bottom of the seniority list isn't great but it is a long term game
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Shady McSly »

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TheStig
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by TheStig »

Lightchop wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:17 pm
altiplano wrote: Thu Nov 29, 2018 2:10 pm

Probably to an extent in the past. They needed more women/minorities and applied misguided policies. That's seen across our society... and still in some, even many institutions....

Now, I think it's absolutely equality of opportunity.

Dr. Jordan Peterson uses this phrase a lot when discussing modern feminism and I tend to agree with a lot of what he says. If a woman is more qualified than me for the job, by all means hire them. But they should never be considered for a position (including minorities) with lower qualifications just due to their race or gender. But then again I'm just a privileged white male so what do I know.
The issue, from what I've observed, is that there aren't that many experienced Female pilots to hire. If an airline hires female pilots with less experience, say 4000 hours, while the average male has 5000 hours they still won't achieve the desired 'equality'. The result would simply be that for any given portion of the seniority list, the women would be younger. The same argument can be made for any minority.
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Just another canuck
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

Okay. It's been awhile, but I'll chime in. Sorry, but you don't make 40% more at AC than TS. The contract is public. Check it out. We're also due for another next year cause we only do 5 years not 10. Although the salaries are higher at AC, when will you see that? My neighbour who flies the 787 took that position almost 30 years in the company. Spent 20 flying the 320 half the month domestic. Even 767 Rouge captains are 20 years in the company. I'll be wide body captain at TS in less than 4. Which means I'll reach max salary in about 13. Most pilots, with the exception of the training folks won't break 500 hours a year at TS. I, as a commuter, worked 115 days last year... That's including ground training and sim. There are folks on the NB that do 90... That's less tban 1/4 of the year for the mathematically challenged. We have great skeds from day 1. We fly south or Europe so our work is typically very efficient. We can not be on reserve for more than a month in row or if we have 4 scheduled days in a month... Sim, overlapped pairing, vacation. We have a very good contract and a good family atmosphere. I can call my CP anytime to talk about whatever I need to. Personally, in my very humble opinion, the only thing AC has on us is job security.... Which is easy when the government bails you out every 7 years.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

If you're dream is AC, go for it. But there are companies besides them who have a lot to offer, whether it be TS or Sunwing or flying an Otter on floats. Flying for AC isn't the only place to hang your hat for a career. And if it's money your after, then bail on Canada altogether cause they're all at the bottom of that list.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Just another canuck wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:33 am Okay. It's been awhile, but I'll chime in. Sorry, but you don't make 40% more at AC than TS. The contract is public. Check it out. We're also due for another next year cause we only do 5 years not 10. Although the salaries are higher at AC, when will you see that? My neighbour who flies the 787 took that position almost 30 years in the company. Spent 20 flying the 320 half the month domestic. Even 767 Rouge captains are 20 years in the company. I'll be wide body captain at TS in less than 4. Which means I'll reach max salary in about 13. Most pilots, with the exception of the training folks won't break 500 hours a year at TS. I, as a commuter, worked 115 days last year... That's including ground training and sim. There are folks on the NB that do 90... That's less tban 1/4 of the year for the mathematically challenged. We have great skeds from day 1. We fly south or Europe so our work is typically very efficient. We can not be on reserve for more than a month in row or if we have 4 scheduled days in a month... Sim, overlapped pairing, vacation. We have a very good contract and a good family atmosphere. I can call my CP anytime to talk about whatever I need to. Personally, in my very humble opinion, the only thing AC has on us is job security.... Which is easy when the government bails you out every 7 years.
Are you math/fact challenge?

When was the last time AC took money? When didn't they pay it back?

Some of your other assertions are inaccurate also.

Mainline 767 is just over 20 years... junior LCC 767 closer to 15. Junior Mainline 320 or LCC 320 about 2...

Can you confirm the Transat pay scale? As I said, I only looked at the pilotpay website and I'm not going searching for your contract... This is what I see...
Screenshot_2018-11-30-13-44-22.png
Screenshot_2018-11-30-13-44-22.png (421.39 KiB) Viewed 3060 times
Looks like I do make about 40% more on a NB and I don't really do much extra... I know FOs that make more than me too but they are working the system pretty hard draft/drop, etc...

Anyway, if those Transat numbers are accurate you'll be a WB Captain in 4 and earning less the an AC EMJ Captain... 30 years to get it? Hardly, see upgrade times above... I wouldn't knock domestic flying either, lots of guys prefer it... easy peasy 4 time zones... at least we have options.

I don't dispute Transat is a good lifestyle company. Basically same as rouge flying which we have a lot of guys doing here... it's bigger than Transat, YOS on upgrade, and a pension...

I wonder if Transat will dual type the 321neo with the 330 to get some more efficiency out of the crews? 330/321neo is a formidable 1/2 punch... new 767/757 like combo...

Anyway. Look forward to the pay confirmation.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

Those numbers aren't even close. And our next contract, one year from now will put us even closer to AC pay. I know we won't get it but look at it this way. If you divides a Transat pilot salary by the number of days worked, the very large majority of us would have a higher daily rate. And that is a fact. Another fact is my neighbour took WB captain at 28 years in the company cause the sked sucked prior to that. I'm not disputing domestic flying. I prefer it myself. I'm only trying to defend the fact that AC isn't the best option for everyone. Again, I'll be a WB captain in 4 years versus 20 plus at AC if you wanna good sked. And yes, we'll have a CCQ program in the next few years. I'll be able to fly a 330 to Paris today and take a 321 back tomorrow. And that's great AC paid the money back but why did they have to take the billion dollar bailouts in the first place... And would Westjet or TS get the same treatment?
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

Last time they took a bailout... 2009. Just checked. 1.02 billion dollars. Did they pay it back? Idk. Again, I'll work on average less than 10 days a month. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure our per diems are the best in Canada. I do 10 credits... Ish. Sourh and back or go to Europe. We have a mini block program that allows us to work even less. We're a great place to work. I know AC is too. It's the Golden goose for most folks. But there are a lot of great things about TS or Sunwing (ability to make copious amounts of OT) that are good too.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by ant_321 »

Most AC and westjet guys I meet think is Sunwing and Transat guys make way less than we do. I talked to one guy who figured the most anyone at SWG could make is about $120k :lol:
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by Just another canuck »

P.S. CCQ program means everyone gets wide body pay and there's only one list per base for FO and Captain. It's gonna be sweeeeeet! I understand why you see a TS guy at the AC ground school now and then. But he or she is probably very young and is less than 2 years in the company. I don't blame them for leaving... Just for the security. When the recession hits, Ottawa's got your back. :-P
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Twenty years from now you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the things you did do.
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by nwopilot »

Those numbers someone posted from a screenshot for Transat are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy Outdated. Add about 35 k onto those numbers. In theory. you could be at the top of the widebody scale with 14 years into the company.
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altiplano
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by altiplano »

Just another canuck wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 1:05 pm Those numbers aren't even close. And our next contract, one year from now will put us even closer to AC pay. I know we won't get it but look at it this way. If you divides a Transat pilot salary by the number of days worked, the very large majority of us would have a higher daily rate. And that is a fact. Another fact is my neighbour took WB captain at 28 years in the company cause the sked sucked prior to that. I'm not disputing domestic flying. I prefer it myself. I'm only trying to defend the fact that AC isn't the best option for everyone. Again, I'll be a WB captain in 4 years versus 20 plus at AC if you wanna good sked. And yes, we'll have a CCQ program in the next few years. I'll be able to fly a 330 to Paris today and take a 321 back tomorrow. And that's great AC paid the money back but why did they have to take the billion dollar bailouts in the first place... And would Westjet or TS get the same treatment?
Thanks for clearing that up. What are the numbers then? Is it hourly? Monthly guarantee? What's your pension like? DC match? Does the company pay/match? Do you pay your own benefits? Do you have disability covered?

How about Sunwing? What's the deal there?

Anyway, I think that is what everyone had said. It's not for everyone... lots of good jobs to be had... but your impressions of AC "sucking" are out to lunch. 20 years to a good schedule? Hardly. Your ideas are way off.

"WB Captain in 4 years" with narrow body pay... divided by this or that, carry the zero, doesn't equal more, but I sure hope you guys DO get ahead or match us ASAP!

2009 was a loan from EDC at 12 or 15 % and it was paid back in full... and only +/- $200 million was EDC - NOT A BILLION. The rest was private equity. Corporations take loans all the time.

AC government "bailouts" is a common fallacy among the general public... you see it in more or less every comment section below any news article that mentions AC...

If I remember previous to that the Feds doled out dollars to all Canadian airlines including Transat in '02 or '03...

There is no question a lot of baggage from the past 80 years at AC, The Airbus Affair, or politicians with one hand on the wheel, one hand in the corporation's pocket... The ACPPA - that's a doozie, where the government mandates where and how AC conducts it's business... are any other airlines subject to that? Any other private corporations? of course not.

Anyway. AC's not for everyone, that's for sure. But it's a good job...
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Re: Why does everyone want to work at Air Canada?

Post by groundpilot »

“Haters gonna hate”

“They hate us cause they ain’t us”

I find it ironic that someone rips into a former crown corporation company with a turbulent history of mergers and tough times that took a government payout but yet brags about how little they work.

If Air Transat pilots are working so little, how efficient can the operation be? Air Canada has had record profits and that is a good thing if you work here.

For the record - I would be happy to lose the “T4 Challenge” and AT pilots make way more than AC ones. It only paves the way for better wages for all...
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