Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Got a hot employment or interview tip to help a fellow aviator find a job or looking for a little job advice place your posting here.

Moderators: ahramin, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, North Shore

Coppertop401
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:13 am

Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Coppertop401 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am

So I've been out pounding the pavement as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums. On top of that these companies are posting ads month after month, and as best I can tell the positions remain open and unfilled. These are all good companies to work for however If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring. Like any low time pilot i'm simply looking for a start. Curious who needs the reality check, me or them?

Any thoughts!
---------- ADS -----------
  

fish4life
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1675
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2010 6:32 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by fish4life » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:16 pm

With the attitude of if u had 1500 hours I’d be at Jazz them may see right through you and move onto the next person
---------- ADS -----------
  

porcsord
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue May 31, 2016 7:09 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by porcsord » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:55 pm

There's a shortage of experienced pilots. 500hrs is the same as 250... that's a 2 month difference in the busy season.

My company has minimums. We stick to them. Why? Because we would rather have an airplane on the ground, then have it flown by someone who is not experienced enough in our opinion (see sub 2500hr pilots). Yes you may be qualified for GGN, Encore or Jazz at that point, but guess what, we pay better, have a better schedule, have all the other benefits (RRSP match, plenty of vacation, health plan, LTD...), and to be frank, your perspective at this point in your career in not important in determining what we think is required to fly our aircraft.

PC
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:47 pm

Coppertop401 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am
as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums.
.....
If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring.
First: 1500 hours is not a lofty or unreasonable amount of experience. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, it's hardly any experience at all.
Second: The ironing is delicious. You want to talk about a complete disconnect from reality? You are bemoaning the fact that some operators are too "choosy" to hire you at 500 hours because if you actually met their experience requirements, you could get a job at one of the airlines that will basically take anyone with a pulse.
Kids these days...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Aviatard
Rank 5
Rank 5
Posts: 392
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:45 am
Location: In a box behind Walmart

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Aviatard » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:06 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:47 pm
The ironing is delicious.
:D
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by mixturerich » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:27 am

fish4life wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:16 pm
With the attitude of if u had 1500 hours I’d be at Jazz them may see right through you and move onto the next person
He’s not wrong though, and he only said he “could be a candidate”. The guy is going out there, working hard. and applying in person by the sounds of it and I don’t really sense the entitlement like you do.

Why are you guys such dicks to young people asking questions on here? Always so trigger happy with the “your attitude stinks” comments. Get a life already and try actually helping and supporting the new prospective pilots in the industry. Many of us had our slice of humble pie at one point, I’m sure you did too.
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
C-GGGQ
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1671
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 12:33 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by C-GGGQ » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:49 am

shimmydampner wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:47 pm
Coppertop401 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am
as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums.
.....
If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring.
First: 1500 hours is not a lofty or unreasonable amount of experience. In fact, in the grand scheme of things, it's hardly any experience at all.
Second: The ironing is delicious. You want to talk about a complete disconnect from reality? You are bemoaning the fact that some operators are too "choosy" to hire you at 500 hours because if you actually met their experience requirements, you could get a job at one of the airlines that will basically take anyone with a pulse.
Kids these days...
Sorry man 1500 is pretty lofty for right seat on single pilot machines for sub min wage and max duty/ min rest
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
kilocharliemike
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:47 am
Location: CYUL

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by kilocharliemike » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:15 am

Coppertop401 wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:31 am
So I've been out pounding the pavement as a 500 hr, CPL, GRP1 IFR, Multi and IATRA pilot and I keep running into companies that are still holding on to extremely lofty minimums ie: 1500, 2500 hr minimums. On top of that these companies are posting ads month after month, and as best I can tell the positions remain open and unfilled. These are all good companies to work for however If I had those kind of times I could be a candidate at JAZZ, ENCORE, Georgian, Sky Regional and many others. Seems like a complete disconnect from reality from my perspective. Seems like a lot of operators are in severe need of pilots but remain picky/choosy when it comes to hiring. Like any low time pilot i'm simply looking for a start. Curious who needs the reality check, me or them?

Any thoughts!
So on pilot career centers opening Canada webpage alone there are about 4-5 or more operators with current postings for fo spots from bare commercial to 800 tt. I particularly like the ornge one asking 500tt. I would have liked that job back when I had your time. There is a lot out there man!
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7738
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:26 am

Are you looking at the Sunwest ad in YYC? Because that’s pretty much the only one I see that fits the bill of 1500 hours (not 2500) single pilot machine, and minimum wage (not sure what they pay but it probably isn’t much).

Carson is 750 for the Metro, CMA is 1000 for a 1900, Bearskin is 750, Perimeter is 500, EVAS is 750, etc etc. You’re actually over qualified for today’s winner.. North Wright aviation at 200TT.

So no... I don’t see a disconnect at all. For those of us who lived through the Bad Old Days, you needed 1000 hours to go to the middle of BFN and slog a Navajo or Metro or King Air around from the right seat... or those who were really really lucky threw bags for a year or two and then got on a 1900 at 250TT.

I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:35 am

iflyforpie wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:26 am
Are you looking at the Sunwest ad in YYC? Because that’s pretty much the only one I see that fits the bill of 1500 hours (not 2500) single pilot machine, and minimum wage (not sure what they pay but it probably isn’t much).

Carson is 750 for the Metro, CMA is 1000 for a 1900, Bearskin is 750, Perimeter is 500, EVAS is 750, etc etc. You’re actually over qualified for today’s winner.. North Wright aviation at 200TT.

So no... I don’t see a disconnect at all. For those of us who lived through the Bad Old Days, you needed 1000 hours to go to the middle of BFN and slog a Navajo or Metro or King Air around from the right seat... or those who were really really lucky threw bags for a year or two and then got on a 1900 at 250TT.

I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
You are missing his point. In your example carson, evas and bearskin require 750 tt. At 1000 tt pilots can get picked up by regional airlines. So pilots join the 704 operator, sign a bond if required and leave after 4 months when the regional calls.
The 704 operator then scratches is head why people leave so quickly and have to pay for training for the next guy. Why do they not hire 200tt pilots? I asked one of them: to save on training costs. That doesn't make sense. Spending twice the money on a 200tt pilot who sticks around 4 times as long will save the 704 compamy money.

So yeah, there definitely is a disconnect.
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:29 am

I think the disconnect is at least in part, a generational thing. Back in the bad old days, the question always asked on here was something along the lines of, "How can I get the XXXX hours required for these jobs when there are no entry level jobs available to build that time." People were searching for ways to make themselves more employable and to build their experience. Now the question is always, "If there's a pilot shortage going on, why aren't companies lowering their standards in order that I might be employable with little to no experience." Similar problem, but two very different questions that suggest different mindsets.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:01 am

You know, for a generation making fun of the "sensitive snowflakes", you sure place a lot of importance on how the topic starter's question was worded :wink:
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by mixturerich » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:51 am

[quote=iflyforpie post_id=1085700 time=1564846010 user_id=16238]
I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
[/quote]

Exactly, even a nice bit of 500 hours of something will show you the “crude” aspect of flying. No expensive formal training, sop’s, or automation.

But honestly the planes are getting even easier to learn and fly these days and the SOP’s are getting very thorough. Plus frequent memo’s that cover even more miscellaneous scenarios.

I think if China can train and employ local cadets at the rate they are going, fly all those flights over there, and not be crashing too many airliners, I think we can handle ourselves over here in Canada.

Ideally everyone flies the bush and operates a twin before going to bigger airlines, but hellooo, it’s pretty obvious now that there’s a pretty epic pilot shortage looming.
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:58 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:01 am
You know, for a generation making fun of the "sensitive snowflakes", you sure place a lot of importance on how the topic starter's question was worded :wink:
Your words, not mine. But at the end of the day, you can spend your time wondering and wishing for the world to be the way you wish it was, or you can operate according to the reality of the situation. If you choose the former, just don't bitch about it to people who choose the latter.
---------- ADS -----------
  

FOD_Vacuum
Rank 4
Rank 4
Posts: 253
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:54 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by FOD_Vacuum » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm

A lot of companies have lowered their minimums by pretty much half in the last five years...that to me is scary. Just to fill the seat? I constantly fly with new 250-750TT FOs and they are, I’m sorry to say it, no good help for the most part. They are great people, but some do think they already deserve AC at 24 years old..They lack experience, outside the box thinking, common sense, are very reactive and don’t have a whole lot to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Yes there a select few who really know their stuff and SOPs, but for a 4500+TT hour captain, it really helps me when I can fly with a somewhat experienced FO. No joke, I asked for input on a decision that you make as crew from one of our FOs and he simply said “I don’t know, I’m not really experienced enough”. When you try to coach, teach and show them how you do the job on a constant basis with FO turn over being less than a few months, burnout is something that happens quite regularly. It is very much a single pilot feel at the regional level. So, I do prefer flying with a +1500hr FO. The airlines is no place for a training environment. We are flying paying customers, not doing VFR circuits and I shouldn’t have to use half my brain power and time to teach how to land a plane. That takes my focus away on other important tasks such as flying the plane, thinking about operational issues, weather, OTP, safety of the operation, MELs, logbook etc, the big picture. End of rant? Maybe I’m grumpy :rolleyes:
---------- ADS -----------
  

mixturerich
Rank 3
Rank 3
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:04 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by mixturerich » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:23 pm

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
A lot of companies have lowered their minimums by pretty much half in the last five years...that to me is scary. Just to fill the seat? I constantly fly with new 250-750TT FOs and they are, I’m sorry to say it, no good help for the most part. They are great people, but some do think they already deserve AC at 24 years old..They lack experience, outside the box thinking, common sense, are very reactive and don’t have a whole lot to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Yes there a select few who really know their stuff and SOPs, but for a 4500+TT hour captain, it really helps me when I can fly with a somewhat experienced FO. No joke, I asked for input on a decision that you make as crew from one of our FOs and he simply said “I don’t know, I’m not really experienced enough”. When you try to coach, teach and show them how you do the job on a constant basis with FO turn over being less than a few months, burnout is something that happens quite regularly. It is very much a single pilot feel at the regional level. So, I do prefer flying with a +1500hr FO. The airlines is no place for a training environment. We are flying paying customers, not doing VFR circuits and I shouldn’t have to use half my brain power and time to teach how to land a plane. That takes my focus away on other important tasks such as flying the plane, thinking about operational issues, weather, OTP, safety of the operation, MELs, logbook etc, the big picture. End of rant? Maybe I’m grumpy :rolleyes:
Solid rant.
---------- ADS -----------
  

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 03, 2019 1:30 pm

FOD_Vacuum wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:07 pm
A lot of companies have lowered their minimums by pretty much half in the last five years...that to me is scary. Just to fill the seat? I constantly fly with new 250-750TT FOs and they are, I’m sorry to say it, no good help for the most part. They are great people, but some do think they already deserve AC at 24 years old..They lack experience, outside the box thinking, common sense, are very reactive and don’t have a whole lot to fall back on when shit hits the fan. Yes there a select few who really know their stuff and SOPs, but for a 4500+TT hour captain, it really helps me when I can fly with a somewhat experienced FO. No joke, I asked for input on a decision that you make as crew from one of our FOs and he simply said “I don’t know, I’m not really experienced enough”. When you try to coach, teach and show them how you do the job on a constant basis with FO turn over being less than a few months, burnout is something that happens quite regularly. It is very much a single pilot feel at the regional level. So, I do prefer flying with a +1500hr FO. The airlines is no place for a training environment. We are flying paying customers, not doing VFR circuits and I shouldn’t have to use half my brain power and time to teach how to land a plane. That takes my focus away on other important tasks such as flying the plane, thinking about operational issues, weather, OTP, safety of the operation, MELs, logbook etc, the big picture. End of rant? Maybe I’m grumpy :rolleyes:
I don't see anything wrong with what you describe. You asked input, the FO honestly said he didn't know. I think that is commendable. Much better than someone who tries to half ass guess what you might want him to say so you think he knows what he is doing.
There is a reason you are the captain and he is the FO. Ask for input, sure, but in the end you should still be able to make the decision yourself, which you did according to your post.

If you truly have to use half your brain power during routine operations to supervise the FO, then it could be the case that in your example the problem is on the left side (captain not comfortable enough with the plane and/or the operations) of the plane instead of the right side, or on the dispatch and operational side (pairing one captain with too many new FOs or working the captains too hard). Mentoring an FO is an essential part of the job as a captain. Routinely flying the plane shouldn't occupy 50% of your brain capacity, so you should have plenty left.

The experience the FO get has to come from somewhere. One source could be the mentoring captains. You are training the FO so the next captain will have a bit of an easier life.

Every FO at his first airline job will require some degree of training on the line. That's just the way things are, and I don't think there is any feasible alternative. You could apply the European requirement of doing 3 landings in an actual airplane for your typerating, but that doesn't help you during line indoc.
---------- ADS -----------
  

a313
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by a313 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:18 pm

I do agree with the OP to some extent but I suppose maybe it can be worded in a different way

A lot of these 703/704 operators are posting FO job ads every month, with the minimums not changing a whole lot. Most of these 703/704 operators are asking anywhere from 750-1000 hours, while some post as low as 500 hours.

The question that I would ask is, why would a new pilot with those hours bother with a 704? Encore, Porter, and Jazz to my knowledge are scooping up 1000 hour guys left right and center... I know at least 5 pilots in the last few months who went to one of the three and they all had roughly 1000 hours. They were also mostly instructors with just 172 PIC time... I have also heard from friends at Jazz that some guys have gotten in as low as 750 hours... while the 750 hour pilot isn't the mass, the 1000 hour pilot seems like a sure bet to get into the regional nowadays

So I would wager that the 703/704 operators are losing guys at a prodigious rate... which I guess would make sense if guys are getting in at say 600-700 hours, then leaving after a few months once they have gotten some right seat time in a twin

Then I guess you're left with the question the OP is asking, why don't 703/704 operators take more 250-500 hour guys direct right seat if the case happens to be that they are losing so many guys...

I don't think it has anything to do with this generation or that generation, I'm just speaking from what I know from friends and those who work in the industry, and the way things are moving now...
---------- ADS -----------
  

Blackdog0301
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:15 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by Blackdog0301 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:31 pm

I have a similar experience as FOD vacuum. I work for a company that prefers to hire 1500 hourish pilots for a 1900 FO position. And let me tell you, some of these FOs that have this amount of time (usually all instructing) STILL need to be babied with every aspect of their flying. I swear sometimes it feels like I’m flying single pilot because I’m having to coach the guy beside me how to work with CRFI numbers, how to calculate IFR alternate requirements, how to use performance charts, etc. It makes some captains grow grey hair very quickly, so you can imagine the babysitting required when putting a 500 hour guy in a high performance, pressurized airplane.

Not sure if it’s proven or not, but I’m almost certain that it’s cheaper for companies to put up with a shortage of pilots while waiting for the right experience to come along than to spend thousands and thousands of dollars teaching a 250 hour pilot how to fly an ILS approach. I’ve heard stories of companies hiring 1000 hour pilots who have just finished their IFR rating, and have never actually flown into a single cloud in their life. Then the training that’s supposed to be aircraft specific and company specific, turns into “how to fly in IMC without becoming disoriented.” Because let’s face it, flying around with some cheap goggles on to simulate IFR is NOWHERE CLOSE to what it actually feels like to fly an ILS approach down to minimums in actual IMC... at night... with a crosswind... in a snow storm...
---------- ADS -----------
  

RollingThunder
Rank 0
Rank 0
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by RollingThunder » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:27 pm

The aviation industry in Canada is now experiencing what almost all other industries have faced for a very very long time. And most companies and are having a hard time coming to terms with what is happening. The aviation industry will now have to compete with all the other industries for younger generation employees of the future. Its a skilled trade and your going to have to start paying like a skilled trade. Plain and simple, or close up shop which I predict many smaller ops will do instead of changing with the times or competing with other industries for skilled workers.
---------- ADS -----------
  
Last edited by RollingThunder on Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:03 pm

Blackdog0301 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:31 pm
I have a similar experience as FOD vacuum. I work for a company that prefers to hire 1500 hourish pilots for a 1900 FO position. And let me tell you, some of these FOs that have this amount of time (usually all instructing) STILL need to be babied with every aspect of their flying.
The 1500 hour requirement is causing this problem, not solving it.

Who in his right mind with 1500 hours and -presumably- an ATPL would accept an FO job on a 1900? You can be a direct entry captain on a similar plane at a variety of operators with this time in this economy!

So who is applying? The people that can't find such jobs, are terribly insecure about their abilities or for whatever reason want to work at your company/base for personal reasons. The first 2 groups will behave in the manner you described.

Now, if you lower the hiring minima to 200 hours, yes, you will have FOs that are fresh out of school and can't fly properly, but you will have a bunch of people still sharp on the regulations and theoretical aspects about flying, who will be a big help with CRFI and alternate requirements etc. Limiting yourself to 1500+ hours for a 1900 FO position practically guarantees they will leave almonst right away or won't cut it. It is highly unlikely you will find any good long term pilots in that pool at the moment. Unless you pay 75k+ for said position, but I highly doubt that...
---------- ADS -----------
  

a313
Rank 1
Rank 1
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2017 12:30 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by a313 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:07 pm

Blackdog0301 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:31 pm
I have a similar experience as FOD vacuum. I work for a company that prefers to hire 1500 hourish pilots for a 1900 FO position. And let me tell you, some of these FOs that have this amount of time (usually all instructing) STILL need to be babied with every aspect of their flying. I swear sometimes it feels like I’m flying single pilot because I’m having to coach the guy beside me how to work with CRFI numbers, how to calculate IFR alternate requirements, how to use performance charts, etc. It makes some captains grow grey hair very quickly, so you can imagine the babysitting required when putting a 500 hour guy in a high performance, pressurized airplane.

Not sure if it’s proven or not, but I’m almost certain that it’s cheaper for companies to put up with a shortage of pilots while waiting for the right experience to come along than to spend thousands and thousands of dollars teaching a 250 hour pilot how to fly an ILS approach. I’ve heard stories of companies hiring 1000 hour pilots who have just finished their IFR rating, and have never actually flown into a single cloud in their life. Then the training that’s supposed to be aircraft specific and company specific, turns into “how to fly in IMC without becoming disoriented.” Because let’s face it, flying around with some cheap goggles on to simulate IFR is NOWHERE CLOSE to what it actually feels like to fly an ILS approach down to minimums in actual IMC... at night... with a crosswind... in a snow storm...
I don't get it, if a pilot doesn't have any IFR experience, or real world experience for that matter, why would you be upset at having to "baby" them... Whether a pilot has 250 hours, or 1500 hours of instructing... if it's all VFR, then realistically one would need guidance when flying in a real world, 703/4/5 operation. Where is one supposed to get this IFR or real world experience before going to a 703/704? There are very, very few pilots who just have the natural ability to sit in the right seat and perform at the highest level as if they've been flying in a commercial ops for the last 10 years

Sure, there are definitely certain things an FO should know, like a CRFI or IFR alternate requirement, but that's a knowledge aspect which is lacking because the person was probably never taught, never bothered learning, or they forgot... either way none of those are really an excuse

Hell, you're probably better off with a 250 hour pilot fresh out of school with a brand new MIFR, then a 1000 hour instructor who got his MIFR 2 years ago and forgot what an ILS is after teaching so many straight and level lessons...

The same argument can be said of keeping a 250 hour pilot on the ramp for 1 to 2 years

I don't get it, but what I do know is Canada is VERY far behind the rest of the world when it comes to aviation... hell the Europeans have been hiring guys with 300 hours direct on A320s and 737s for the longest time and they seem to be doing just fine
---------- ADS -----------
  

User avatar
iflyforpie
Top Poster
Top Poster
Posts: 7738
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:25 pm
Location: Winterfell...

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by iflyforpie » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:42 pm

digits_ wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:35 am
iflyforpie wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:26 am
Are you looking at the Sunwest ad in YYC? Because that’s pretty much the only one I see that fits the bill of 1500 hours (not 2500) single pilot machine, and minimum wage (not sure what they pay but it probably isn’t much).

Carson is 750 for the Metro, CMA is 1000 for a 1900, Bearskin is 750, Perimeter is 500, EVAS is 750, etc etc. You’re actually over qualified for today’s winner.. North Wright aviation at 200TT.

So no... I don’t see a disconnect at all. For those of us who lived through the Bad Old Days, you needed 1000 hours to go to the middle of BFN and slog a Navajo or Metro or King Air around from the right seat... or those who were really really lucky threw bags for a year or two and then got on a 1900 at 250TT.

I see someone who’s mind is already at Air Canada when your body should be in a Cessna 206 building up another 500 hours of PIC and gaining experience that will be valuable when the SOPs draw a blank and there’s a 1000 hour wonder sitting beside you, and then hitting the road rather than waiting for a job to come to you.
You are missing his point. In your example carson, evas and bearskin require 750 tt. At 1000 tt pilots can get picked up by regional airlines. So pilots join the 704 operator, sign a bond if required and leave after 4 months when the regional calls.
The 704 operator then scratches is head why people leave so quickly and have to pay for training for the next guy. Why do they not hire 200tt pilots? I asked one of them: to save on training costs. That doesn't make sense. Spending twice the money on a 200tt pilot who sticks around 4 times as long will save the 704 compamy money.

So yeah, there definitely is a disconnect.
The disconnect is in that career progression, not the operator requirements.

Why would you go from a place that’s going to give you a quick upgrade and making some ok money back to the bottom? Because of a big shiny 705 plane? Because it (almost) has the house colours on it? Because your base will be so much closer and affordable? We’ve seen that PML and seniority have been bait and switch and moving targets at both Red and Teal.

So why not get an ATPL and some command time and go straight to mainline after a few years rather than wasting time with regionals?
---------- ADS -----------
  
Geez did I say that....? Or just think it....?

digits_
Rank 10
Rank 10
Posts: 2185
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:26 am

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by digits_ » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:06 pm

No it isn't. The 704 operator is the one that suffers most in the current situation. It would be logical -and soon an economical requirement- that they adapt. They can't change the (illogical?) career desires from their pilots but they can control how long pilots stay by adjusting their hour requirements and/or salary to match the current economic reality.

If you know they leave at 1000 hours, don't hire them with 999 hours.
---------- ADS -----------
  

shimmydampner
Rank (9)
Rank (9)
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 3:59 pm

Re: Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:42 am

digits_ wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:03 pm
Now, if you lower the hiring minima to 200 hours, yes, you will have FOs that are fresh out of school and can't fly properly, but you will have a bunch of people still sharp on the regulations and theoretical aspects about flying
There's a great sales pitch to the traveling public, not to mention the insurance companies; "Our pilots can't fly properly, but they read about it in a book!"
RollingThunder wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:27 pm
And to very blunt the previous generation have created the pilot shortage themselves by allowing the poor pay and working conditions to continue
That's right kids, this horrible situation you've found yourself in where jobs have never been easier to get is all somebody else's fault! So show the previous generation that you're not settling for the same poor pay that they did, and rush to get that sweet $37k/yr job at the regional airline of your choice!
Also, your mom called, she said to be home by 9.
---------- ADS -----------
  

Post Reply

Return to “Employment Forum”