Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

[goingnowherefast]

Often I wonder what would happen if the captain were to become incapacitated.

[C-GGGQ]

It has suddenly dawned on me what the disconnect is. There is a fundamental difference between how guys like GGGQ and digits view the role and responsibility of an FO, and how I do. One side seems to think that the position is one where it is acceptable for inexperienced pilots to undergo a sort of lengthy on the job training process, wherein they likely are not truly competent at the start, but hopefully get there over time without anything too bad happening because they are under the watchful eye of a (hopefully) experienced captain. I fundamentally disagree with this. It is a professional endeavor, not training environment. You need to have your act fully together before you ever get there. I believe it is the responsibility of the FO to assist the captain and be fully competent and capable of handling the aircraft on their own, while learning the finer points of the aircraft and operation and polishing their existing skills with help from the more experienced captain. I believe the latter is what both the guy in the left seat, and the passengers in the back are ethically entitled to.

I think where we disagree is the length that training process takes. I think what digits and I are saying is that it's perfectly acceptable for a new FO to take a month or two, somewhere in the 50-100 hr range to get into the groove. Now if you're saying these guys are useless still 4-8 months down the line then I posit it's not the <500hr FO's that's the problem it's training.

[shimmydampner]

Well then we'll have to agree to disagree. Like I said, I don't think even 2 months of incompetence is ok.

[a313]

...

[digits_]

It has suddenly dawned on me what the disconnect is. There is a fundamental difference between how guys like GGGQ and digits view the role and responsibility of an FO, and how I do. One side seems to think that the position is one where it is acceptable for inexperienced pilots to undergo a sort of lengthy on the job training process, wherein they likely are not truly competent at the start, but hopefully get there over time without anything too bad happening because they are under the watchful eye of a (hopefully) experienced captain. I fundamentally disagree with this. It is a professional endeavor, not training environment. You need to have your act fully together before you ever get there. I believe it is the responsibility of the FO to assist the captain and be fully competent and capable of handling the aircraft on their own, while learning the finer points of the aircraft and operation and polishing their existing skills with help from the more experienced captain. I believe the latter is what both the guy in the left seat, and the passengers in the back are ethically entitled to.

Not at all. It's probably a more philosophical discussion as to how well an FO should perform. But it is irrelevant for the point I'm trying to make, because I am comparing the current scenario vs my proposed scenario. I'm not comparing anything to the "ideal" scenario.

I'll repeat and rephrase: If you take the average performance level of a 1500 hour pilot accepting a 1900 FO position, then the top XX of the group of 200 hour pilots applying for your job will achieve the same or better performance with less than double the training, and they will stick around longer, recuperating the training costs.

[goingnowherefast]

What's missing from this discussion is the attitude of the various scenarios.

I've flown with a 2000hr FO with a "I'm good enough" attitude. Was a shame, cause he was horrible.

I've flown with a 300hr FO who had less than 50 hours on type with a great eagerness to learn and was miles ahead of the previously mentioned pilot.

It's the eager attitude and willingness to learn that begins when the candidate is hired, through company indoc, groundschool, sim, line indoc and routine line flying. Most super low time pilots know they're at an experience disadvantage, so are generally super eager.

The 1000-2000 hr FO, what's their background, their attitude, humility, etc.? 2000hrs of complacently is different than a PC12 FO needing the multi ride for their ATPL, so finds a 1900 FO spot with the intent to go captain soon. Meaning very eager with ambitious career goals. Chances are the sim and PPC ride went much better, line indoc goes smoother, offers actual feedback and useful opinions and support to the captain.

I'll take a 500hr eager competent FO over the 2000hr complacent FO any day.

[Moosemeat]

I’m flying 703 at a base that also has 704. Several cojos have moved on to the green pastures that all are looking for with 900-1200 hours. Mind you their experience in my opinion is top of the line with turbine and no auto pilot.

[shimmydampner]

I'll repeat and rephrase: If you take the average performance level of a 1500 hour pilot accepting a 1900 FO position, then the top XX of the group of 200 hour pilots applying for your job will achieve the same or better performance with less than double the training, and they will stick around longer, recuperating the training costs.

Forgive me but I'm trying to understand your position. Are you suggesting that anyone with 1500 hours who would apply for a 1900 FO position must be a sub par pilot? If so, why?

[C-GGGQ]

Yes that's exactly what he's said multiple times. He believes in this market where 800 hrs can get you into the regionals that the 1500 hr guy who goes to the 1900 probably has been PFO'd from the better options. Where as you could screen for the cream of the crop of the 200-500 hr guys applying and get a much better pilot.

[digits_]

Yes that's exactly what he's said multiple times. He believes in this market where 800 hrs can get you into the regionals that the 1500 hr guy who goes to the 1900 probably has been PFO'd from the better options. Where as you could screen for the cream of the crop of the 200-500 hr guys applying and get a much better pilot.

Yes, thank you for the summary!

With the little addition that some 1500 hr pilots might accept the 1900 FO job by choice for other reasons (base close to home, no desire to go to airlines, ...) in which case my theory doesn't apply, but from what I've seen, I estimate that to be a tiny minority and there are definitely not enough of those people out there to crew the 1900 FO jobs.

[shimmydampner]

I will certainly admit that it seems doubtful that ANYONE good or bad with 1500 hours would apply for such a position, but I think that's quite a leap to make to assume that if they did, they suck. It's no different than thinking that a 250 hour applicant would suck.

[shimmydampner]

the 1500 hr guy who goes to the 1900 probably has been PFO'd from the better options. Where as you could screen for the cream of the crop of the 200-500 hr guys applying and get a much better pilot.

Would you throw the 1500 hour guy's resume out under the assumption that he was no good, or would you screen him as you would a 250 hour guy?

[C-GGGQ]

Screen him, but the point stands the pool of "1500 hr guys looking for 1900 FO positions" is limited, where as the pool of "250-500 looking for anything" is much larger with therefore a higher likelyhood of finding that exceptional beginner.

[digits_]

the 1500 hr guy who goes to the 1900 probably has been PFO'd from the better options. Where as you could screen for the cream of the crop of the 200-500 hr guys applying and get a much better pilot.

Would you throw the 1500 hour guy's resume out under the assumption that he was no good, or would you screen him as you would a 250 hour guy?

Another part of what I'm trying to say is that, due to advertising required minimum hours of 600/1000/+, the 704 operator will never see the full size of the 200 hour pool, because a significant part of 200h pilots will not apply of the minimum required hours is >1000.

And finally, even the good 1500 hour pilots that apply, will most likely be advertising at the regional/mainline level as well. So even if they are great, you'll lose them pretty quickly, which strains the training department and line indoc guys more than it should.

[digits_]

I will certainly admit that it seems doubtful that ANYONE good or bad with 1500 hours would apply for such a position, but I think that's quite a leap to make to assume that if they did, they suck. It's no different than thinking that a 250 hour applicant would suck.

Of course it is different. You don't have any -or very limited- information regarding a 250 hour applicant. So it could go both ways.
With the 1500 hour pilot, you have more information (previous employer, career soo far, ...). Unless he has a good reason why he wants to work at your 704 operation as an FO, I would treat that as a red flag.

[shimmydampner]

So it has come to this...experienced pilots need not apply, lest the office drones deem you a loser for not already being an airline drone.
Good to know. It has taken me the long way around to suss out what I already suspected.

[Coppertop401]

I am the OP and would like to thank all for the lively and mostly informative posts. No I don't feel I am privileged in any way and yes I am working hard putting myself out there. Yes, there are some great companies out there that offer great pay, lots of vacation, RRSP and other benefits but as stated they have their minimums. I would like to aspire to work, grow and learn inside one of these companies and perhaps make a long term career decision and stay a while.

But until then I'm stuck at 500 hrs with MIFR Ratings until............?

Again thanks for reading.

[Plane_sight]

You're stuck at 500 hrs? Much better than being stuck at 220! You now meet a lot of the posted minimums (500 min for Medevac) so your options are really starting to open up.

There isn't a real shortage, there's only a shortage of 10,000 hr captains with 1000 hrs time-on-type. This shortage talk is just misinformation that's made its way into the media.

Flight schools are still pumping out a far greater number of pilots than can be absorbed by the established paths for low-timers.

[Zaibatsu]

Oh no. There definitely is a shortage that extends far below that. Just not to the 200-500 hour wonders out there unless it involves going far north and working the ramp.

The shortage is for 5000TT+ captains who want to stay at the regionals. 3000TT captains who want to stay 704. 1500TT pilot who want to stay flying anything piston. 1500TT ATPs who want to apply for the regionals. 1000TT CPLs who want to apply to 704s.

[Coppertop401]

Thanks to all for your insights.

I would like to thank mixturerich for his/her clear understanding of my original post. Please send me a PM if you would please.

In the meantime, I'll just keep pounding the pavement with that same positive, enthusiastic and optimistic attitude I have always had (with this new career as I did throughout my last career). I must say from reading most (not all) of the posts from the more experienced pilots to the new ones on this forum, positive encouragement is where the real shortage seems to be. That is sad!

Over!