Pilot Shortage / Minimums /disconnect

[shimmydampner]

So it has come to this...experienced pilots need not apply, lest the office drones deem you a loser for not already being an airline drone.
Good to know. It has taken me the long way around to suss out what I already suspected.

[Coppertop401]

I am the OP and would like to thank all for the lively and mostly informative posts. No I don't feel I am privileged in any way and yes I am working hard putting myself out there. Yes, there are some great companies out there that offer great pay, lots of vacation, RRSP and other benefits but as stated they have their minimums. I would like to aspire to work, grow and learn inside one of these companies and perhaps make a long term career decision and stay a while.

But until then I'm stuck at 500 hrs with MIFR Ratings until............?

Again thanks for reading.

[Plane_sight]

You're stuck at 500 hrs? Much better than being stuck at 220! You now meet a lot of the posted minimums (500 min for Medevac) so your options are really starting to open up.

There isn't a real shortage, there's only a shortage of 10,000 hr captains with 1000 hrs time-on-type. This shortage talk is just misinformation that's made its way into the media.

Flight schools are still pumping out a far greater number of pilots than can be absorbed by the established paths for low-timers.

[Zaibatsu]

Oh no. There definitely is a shortage that extends far below that. Just not to the 200-500 hour wonders out there unless it involves going far north and working the ramp.

The shortage is for 5000TT+ captains who want to stay at the regionals. 3000TT captains who want to stay 704. 1500TT pilot who want to stay flying anything piston. 1500TT ATPs who want to apply for the regionals. 1000TT CPLs who want to apply to 704s.

[Coppertop401]

Thanks to all for your insights.

I would like to thank mixturerich for his/her clear understanding of my original post. Please send me a PM if you would please.

In the meantime, I'll just keep pounding the pavement with that same positive, enthusiastic and optimistic attitude I have always had (with this new career as I did throughout my last career). I must say from reading most (not all) of the posts from the more experienced pilots to the new ones on this forum, positive encouragement is where the real shortage seems to be. That is sad!

Over!

[Zaibatsu]

Oh. I’m sorry.

Yeah, Air Canada is hiring pilots with 500 hours and zero multi!!!! Expect the base of your choice and to be upgraded to captain on the 787 in six months!!!!!!



You have two choices. You can have us say what you want to hear, and be disappointed when it doesn’t actually turn out that way, or you can hear realistic things and accept them. Choose to pursue your career or like so many low timers give up because there still isn’t room for all of the pilots who want to be pilots.

That why the shortage is more acute at the higher end, nobody is sticking it out.

Look, there has never been a better time to be a pilot. When I had 500 hours I was in northern Alberta flying piston airplanes around and did touch a turbine until I had over 2000 hours. Hiring minimums have gone down..... ....way down, but obviously some higher ups have figured that they can only go so low. So count your blessings and get out there. Stop moping around here looking for someone to validate your points because even if they do it means sweet f all in the real world unless it comes with a job offer.

[Plane_sight]

Oh. I’m sorry.

Yeah, Air Canada is hiring pilots with 500 hours and zero multi!!!! Expect the base of your choice and to be upgraded to captain on the 787 in six months!!!!!!



You have two choices. You can have us say what you want to hear, and be disappointed when it doesn’t actually turn out that way, or you can hear realistic things and accept them. Choose to pursue your career or like so many low timers give up because there still isn’t room for all of the pilots who want to be pilots.

That why the shortage is more acute at the higher end, nobody is sticking it out.

Look, there has never been a better time to be a pilot. When I had 500 hours I was in northern Alberta flying piston airplanes around and did touch a turbine until I had over 2000 hours. Hiring minimums have gone down..... ....way down, but obviously some higher ups have figured that they can only go so low. So count your blessings and get out there. Stop moping around here looking for someone to validate your points because even if they do it means sweet f all in the real world unless it comes with a job offer.

There is no need for a response like this. The OP _was_ positive (unless I've overlooked a very negative post). Nowhere did he state that he expected life to be handed to him on a silver platter.

If you disagree then state you disagree and why. Contribute to the discussion instead of posting useless, insulting, sarcastic replies.

The OP brought up an interesting point for discussion and like mixturerich said:

With the attitude of if u had 1500 hours I’d be at Jazz them may see right through you and move onto the next person

He’s not wrong though, and he only said he “could be a candidate”. The guy is going out there, working hard. and applying in person by the sounds of it and I don’t really sense the entitlement like you do.

Why are you guys such dicks to young people asking questions on here? Always so trigger happy with the “your attitude stinks” comments. Get a life already and try actually helping and supporting the new prospective pilots in the industry. Many of us had our slice of humble pie at one point, I’m sure you did too.

[Zaibatsu]

How was the OP positive when you look at the title of this thread? It says it all. Someone who’s going into the best pilot market this world has ever seen with almost no experience thinks that there is some sort of disconnect because the already low minimums aren’t low enough.

First impressions mean everything in this industry. Just because there’s a pilot shortage doesn’t mean you’re going to get hired.

[a313]

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[Zaibatsu]

I think it’s already been said.

Go north/east/really far north and take ANY flying job.

Come back when you’ve got the hours.

Maybe the ads are going up repeatedly, but experience required isn’t going down. They obviously know what they’re doing and it doesn’t involve hiring lower time pilots. Ads are free and if you want them to stay at the top you keep posting them. Jazz and Encore and West Jet and Air Canada have almost perpetual job postings on their sites. Doesn’t mean they are lowering requirements.

[a313]

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[goingnowherefast]

The answer is dollars. Pay a 704 (or 705 "lite") FO 60 grand and the captain 100-150 grand, have them home every night, treat them properly, you won't have a shortage.

That's where the real disconnect is. The 704 operators are still acting like it's 2009 and don't want to admit they're competing with the regional airlines and occasionally the majors for pilots. If you want poor coppertop401 to work for the likes of PASCO or Perimeter, he/she has to see them as on par with or better than the regionals. That means no more huffing bags in a -40 blizzard, hoping nobody noticed tha bit of leading edge ice that didn't break off, dealing with a cranky pax who's bag got bumped for alternate fuel.

200hr pilots are still supposed to find a VFR piston single job on floats, skydiving, pipeline patrol, instructing, maybe a Caravan or PC12 FO. Once passing 750 or 1000 hours, then go from there.

[LegoMan]

Skydiving is a tough gig nowadays. Lots of places going to turbine, requiring more time and sucking up the volume from the piston operators. Those with enough hours on type to get a job are fighting for the few hours. What used to be 300-400 hours a season is more like 170-200, and that's full-time. Too many jump pilots logging time too slowly. At the current rate one can probably hope to get to 750 hours in about 3-4 seasons. 12-14 hour days to log 3-4 hours on average.

[Zaibatsu]

I think it’s already been said.

Go north/east/really far north and take ANY flying job.

Come back when you’ve got the hours.

Maybe the ads are going up repeatedly, but experience required isn’t going down. They obviously know what they’re doing and it doesn’t involve hiring lower time pilots. Ads are free and if you want them to stay at the top you keep posting them. Jazz and Encore and West Jet and Air Canada have almost perpetual job postings on their sites. Doesn’t mean they are lowering requirements.

Yes, except Jazz, Encore and Porter all hire 1000 hour guys, some even lower. If these 703/704 operators obviously know what they're doing then I wish them the best of luck in finding candidates but chances are slim, because I promise you, almost nobody in their right mind wants to go fly a king air in the middle of nowhere WHEN there are better options out there.

Since this is the climate today, the 703/704 operators are stuck with selecting from a very small pool of candidates and therefore are always posting ads, which is futile at best

IF things continue to go the way they are now, and most 250 hour pilots instruct, or find that magical right seat job without working ramp, get their 1000 hours and leave to the regionals, some of these operators will likely be forced to shut down if they can't fill their void, I don't see how else they'll be able to solve the issue of not having pilots if nobody with the required hours wants to work there

What do you define as better? Jazz and Encore don’t pay better that all but the absolute scuzziest of 703 operators. They base you in cities where you’d better be living in mom’s basement because otherwise you’ll be living in a van down by the river or hot bunking with half a dozen other dudes after a gruelling commute on you day off. They won’t necessarily get you to the big boys faster unless you’ve got some other time, like some PIC flying a King Air in the middle of nowhere. I also think the sub 1000TT guys going to Jazz are the Cinderella stories and the guys at Encore are doing Dash 8 flying for King Air wages even when they go left. Porter? Can you even rent a mailbox in downtown Toronto for what they pay?

[a313]

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[Warden]

The answer is dollars. Pay a 704 (or 705 "lite") FO 60 grand and the captain 100-150 grand, have them home every night, treat them properly, you won't have a shortage.

That's where the real disconnect is. The 704 operators are still acting like it's 2009 and don't want to admit they're competing with the regional airlines and occasionally the majors for pilots. If you want poor coppertop401 to work for the likes of PASCO or Perimeter, he/she has to see them as on par with or better than the regionals. That means no more huffing bags in a -40 blizzard, hoping nobody noticed tha bit of leading edge ice that didn't break off, dealing with a cranky pax who's bag got bumped for alternate fuel.

200hr pilots are still supposed to find a VFR piston single job on floats, skydiving, pipeline patrol, instructing, maybe a Caravan or PC12 FO. Once passing 750 or 1000 hours, then go from there.

Hey I know you aren't really the biggest fan of Jazz. That being said, your numbers aren't that far off from someone who sticks around longer than 3 - 4 years at Jazz. And you are talking about having people "stick around" for careers so just take the following for what it's worth. An opinion. We can all agree the starting pay is dismal, but when you factor in all aspects of the contract including per diems, pension, benefits and the ability to pick up extra flying if you so choose it's not the worst place to be.

Based on 80 credits a month, no overtime. I'm being on the conservative side, most roster have been 82.5-85 for the last few years.

Most pilots take home between $800-$1500 a month in per diems based on reserve/block, dash/CRJ. Yes, per diems aren't "pay" but I sure don't spend $90 a day on food and if it ends up in my pocket it ends up in my pocket.

As of July 2019

Year 1 FO $38,400
Year 2 FO $40,800
Year 3 FO $42,240
Year 4 FO $43,680
Year 5 FO $50,880
Year 6 FO $58,560
Year 7 FO $70,291
Year 8 FO $72,038

Year 1 CA $76,800
Year 2 CA $79,200
Year 3 CA $83,040
Year 4 CA $85,440
Year 5 CA $89,280
Year 6 CA $96,988
Year 7 CA $99,417
Year 8 CA $101,904

If you were a year 1-2 FO right now and upgraded. In 8 years your pay would be closer to $117,052 based on %2 compounding increases.

No one is going to make $60k starting at ANY regional as long as Air Canada pays what it does. We need to fix that first, and then bring up the bottom.

[Babar350]

.

[C.W.E.]

We need to fix that first, and then bring up the bottom.

So why don't you fix it?

[Freeport_Flyer]

To the OP Coppertop401: I agree. I think there is an unwillingness of the 703/704 operators to grasp the reality of the current job market. I don't see how they can expect to compete with regionals for the same or less money, for more/the same amount of work. Also the regionals can lead to that cushy 10-14 days/month on a wide-body making good money sipping Mai Thais at the hotel pool. If smaller operators want the same talent the regionals are after, they have to make themselves more attractive and that means more money or a better quality of life; or both...

In the mean time, if you don't want to take crap pay / conditions for a job, join the Air Force. Excellent training, they pay you and a junior Captain (rank not PIC) makes about $80-$100k /yr. If you're willing to take a flying job anywhere, it's as good go with 500hrs; you may even get into a 4 Engine heavy flying around the world in less time than slugging it out in the civil side to do the same thing. Just saying...

Evaluating a pilot solely on the number at the bottom of a log book page is a mistake. For 703/704 I'd take the 500hr pilot who's been flying MedEvac in miserable weather / places and still alive to tell the tale over the 1000hr pilot who has been to the same practice area and same 3 airports in a 172. Experience is one thing; relevant experience is the key.

Try to make some decisions on what career path you want and seek out the jobs that help get you there. The first years are going to suck until you can build the relevant experience for the career you are ultimately after. Take each position as an opportunity to learn. Short term pain, long term gain.

Good Luck!

[shimmydampner]

Tell us what you want new pilots with 250-500 hours to do to get that first job.
What should the 703/704 operators do so they don't keep reposting ads every 2 weeks
....
So how do you fix this never ending vicious cycle in an idealistic world?

These are disparate "problems" and I don't understand why you're conflating them. Why would a 250 hour pilot care about the revolving door at the 703/704 level? If that ends, your job prospects go down considerably. That's not a pilot's problem. That's a pilot's market.
As for this:

The answer is dollars. Pay a 704 (or 705 "lite") FO 60 grand and the captain 100-150 grand, have them home every night, treat them properly, you won't have a shortage.

It's certainly a start, but it's also a gross over-simplification of the calculus involved to get guys to stay, in large part because of this :

Most of my friends who work in other industries still live at home, and there's no shame in that. Most young adults from 20-30 still end up living with their parents, or roommates given the current economic climate in the big cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver,etc). I bet if you ask someone in their mid 20s if they would prefer to live in Thunder Bay or Toronto, 90% would say Toronto

The reality of Canadian aviation is that a large part of it outside of the mainline/regional level is to and from varying degrees of "remote" locations. Unfortunately for those operators, many people don't want to live in these locations over the long term, no matter the pay, schedule, etc. For these operators, high levels of attrition are a fact of life. They just need to find a happy medium between cost of turnover vs cost of keeping people.
As an aside, people in their 20s would really rather live with their parents in Toronto over being independent somewhere more liveable? Does no one care about getting laid?