Central Mountain Air weekly job ad...

[the AK]

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@77W - nope — not a manager at all. I do see what’s going on but the picture that’s being painted isn’t accurate. Grated there are those that have quit or been terminated that come on here and hide behind their usernames and paint an unfair image of the company.

Relatively low time 1900 FO out of Calgary for sure. Everything is fun and exciting when you are young and learning. I can guarantee that I have worked at this company far longer than you. CMA is a dead end company based on how much they pay and the working conditions. 1900 Capts pay scale goes from
55 000 - 75 000 a year. Nobody is ever going to retire making that for their entire career. And if the company is so great please explain the high turn over.

[RILEY]

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@77W - nope — not a manager at all. I do see what’s going on but the picture that’s being painted isn’t accurate. Grated there are those that have quit or been terminated that come on here and hide behind their usernames and paint an unfair image of the company.

Relatively low time 1900 FO out of Calgary for sure. Everything is fun and exciting when you are young and learning. I can guarantee that I have worked at this company far longer than you. CMA is a dead end company based on how much they pay and the working conditions. 1900 Capts pay scale goes from
55 000 - 75 000 a year. Nobody is ever going to retire making that for their entire career. And if the company is so great please explain the high turn over.

What are you still doing there? Maybe you’re part of the problem? Try being the change or initiating some change instead of contributing to the sub par morale. Life is about perception.

I treated my experience with CMA as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. Never had a issue with management, in fact thought they were fairly easy to talk to, and always had a great relationship with the CP. There is lots of opportunity to grow within. If I were to have chosen to continue / get stuck at CMA I’d make sure I’d strive to take on a role that consisted of more than just flying. In my opinion that’s the only way you’d make a suitable career for yourself at a company like this / many 704 operators.

[goingnowherefast]

Holy shit, most 1900 captains start higher than 75 grand. I see ads on here for 100 grand with 85-90 probably being the average STARTING pay for a 1900 captain.

55 grand should be the Dash 8 FO pay

[BleedAirValve]

One question - why are you still here if it’s SO terrible?

CMA - as far as i know - was never meant to be a place where someone did a full career. It has always been a stepping stone to AC or one of the others majors — hence the low wages. Could they be better - for sure.

As for you post, I guarantee that’s you’ve been at CMA FAR longer than I which probably explains your piss poor attitude and why your running the company through the mud on a public forum. You must have been PFO’d by every carrier your applied to and your “stuck” at CMA now.

Tell you what - why don’t you do everyone at CMA a favor and quit and take the garbage you spew on here away so it doesn’t spill in to the cockpit.

Oh - and as far as the “high turnover” - 4 in the last 6 months isn’t high turn over and if you look at where they went - they are all for better things - Sunwing - Cargojet - Jazz - Mainline AC. But your too busy focused on what’s wrong and being part of the problem (as you say) rather than talk to someone in management to try and help fix things.

.

@77W - nope — not a manager at all. I do see what’s going on but the picture that’s being painted isn’t accurate. Grated there are those that have quit or been terminated that come on here and hide behind their usernames and paint an unfair image of the company.

Relatively low time 1900 FO out of Calgary for sure. Everything is fun and exciting when you are young and learning. I can guarantee that I have worked at this company far longer than you. CMA is a dead end company based on how much they pay and the working conditions. 1900 Capts pay scale goes from
55 000 - 75 000 a year. Nobody is ever going to retire making that for their entire career. And if the company is so great please explain the high turn over.

[goingnowherefast]

Intending to be a stepping stone company doesn't work anymore. When regionals accept 1000hr FOs, who is left to be a 1900 or Dash 8 captain? Short answer is those who don't want to go to the regionals.

Then you just end up with the captains who are there because the like the location, and desperately hang on to any glimmer of hope that the company will improve. If the company wanted to improve, they would. Talking to upper management won't help, cause they already know, have so far gotten away with it and fully intend to get away with it as long as possible. Why would you pay more if you don't have to?

BleedAirValve, why aren't you working for Jazz, PASCO, Encore or any other higher paying and more reputable company?

[BleedAirValve]

Haven’t learnt all I can on the 1900 and would like to go left seat and get my PIC time up so I can go to the regionals or mainline someday possibly....or not

[iflyforpie]

I work for the sister company and while it may be “one country, two systems” the cheques still come from the same place. I’ll share my insights.

Like at every other place I’ve worked... I’ve never had a safety decision questioned. I’ve been stranded in the middle of nowhere with a broken airplane and there was no question it had to be fixed there. I’ve been asked to ferry an aircraft and after weighing options decided to do so because the risk was acceptable. I’ve never been pressured and while there has been some grumbling about down time and cost there has never been any regarding the decisions I made. If anyone told me to fly it anyways I’d be on the first flight home.

CMA lags behind us in pay and schedule but it also allows you to fly out of a Vancouver or Calgary base in addition to Prince George and Smithers.

I could go to Jazz or Encore tomorrow. I turned down WestJet mainline earlier this year. Air Canada? Maybe...

You can get the fast upgrade at Jazz and Encore. But where are you going to be? Dead end at Encore and commuting across the country at Jazz. WestJet you’d better get used to the right side of the plane unless you want to see the left side of the same plane for the same money. Air Canada making less than a “low paid” CMA 1900 captain for four years and less than half of some CMA Dash captains who are starting to push over six figures.

Ultimately if you don’t like it, leave. It’s never been easier to do so. Or go work for some other 1900 operator who pays more but where you have to deal with more BS (which is why they pay more).

[BleedAirValve]

+1

I work for the sister company and while it may be “one country, two systems” the cheques still come from the same place. I’ll share my insights.

Like at every other place I’ve worked... I’ve never had a safety decision questioned. I’ve been stranded in the middle of nowhere with a broken airplane and there was no question it had to be fixed there. I’ve been asked to ferry an aircraft and after weighing options decided to do so because the risk was acceptable. I’ve never been pressured and while there has been some grumbling about down time and cost there has never been any regarding the decisions I made. If anyone told me to fly it anyways I’d be on the first flight home.

CMA lags behind us in pay and schedule but it also allows you to fly out of a Vancouver or Calgary base in addition to Prince George and Smithers.

I could go to Jazz or Encore tomorrow. I turned down WestJet mainline earlier this year. Air Canada? Maybe...

You can get the fast upgrade at Jazz and Encore. But where are you going to be? Dead end at Encore and commuting across the country at Jazz. WestJet you’d better get used to the right side of the plane unless you want to see the left side of the same plane for the same money. Air Canada making less than a “low paid” CMA 1900 captain for four years and less than half of some CMA Dash captains who are starting to push over six figures.

Ultimately if you don’t like it, leave. It’s never been easier to do so. Or go work for some other 1900 operator who pays more but where you have to deal with more BS (which is why they pay more).

[the AK]

Oh - and as far as the “high turnover” - 4 in the last 6 months isn’t high turn over

From Sept 2017 to Sept 2018 CMA had a turnover of 37 pilots. I know this because I kept track based on the drafts. So that is a touch over 50% based on a roster of 60 pilots. You weren't here when they only had 2 dash captains last summer, or the winter before that when all 3 Dornier Capts quit within 10 days of each other. They quit because they had their vacation taken away.

The 704 CP is a great guy, no doubt about it. But he has no control over any of the decisions. I have talked to the people in Smithers and you are right, they will politely listen to everything a person has to say. And absolutely nothing changes.

Look at how we are paid. We aren't paid based on a credit hour. Sit down and figure out how many credits you work and then figure out how many credit hours of overtime you aren't being paid. So not only does CMA pay less than most other companies but the pilots take a double hit because they work far more for less.

Here is a little inside scoop about the past history that has led to the current situation. Years ago CMA leased 2 Dash 8 300's from someone that most people will know. But they didn't do the due diligence when signing the lease. (It would cost money to do that) The lease they had signed was so slanted in favour of the lease holder that by the end of the term they owed an impossible amount of money. No way that CMA was ever going to be able to pay it back. The only reason why the company is still operating is because the person who had leased these aircraft to CMA agreed to for go payment and took a large equity stake in the company. He is going to use the company has a piggy bank and bleed it dry. The reason we moved hangers was because he owns the new one and can make his money renting it to CMA for an enormous amount. All these "new" dash's are his. Again he is making money on those leases. At the expense of the financial stability of CMA.

If you don't believe me. Watch. CJE and DNG are the only DHC-8 that he doesn't own. They are leased from someone else. He will want those gone as soon as possible so he can move more of his airplanes in and milk the company for more money.

As for being stuck at the company and being pissed off, not really accurate. But what does piss me off is when people new to the company and the industry paint a rosy picture instead of telling the truth. Everything I have written on here is what has happened to me and others I know. In this hiring environment there is no reason for most people to sign a two year bond and make this money working under theses conditions.

For those interested

1900 fo start at mid to high 30's
1900 Capt pay scale starts a 55 000 and tops out at 75 000
705 FO's make low 40's

705 Capts fall into two categories based on whether or not the person meets contrails.

Non- contrails pay starts at 65 or 66 000 and goes up by about 3000 a year to just under 100 000
Contrail starts just over 83 000 and tops out the same. Just under 100 000

Per diems are far less than other airlines and amount to about 300 a month. This depends on when you day starts and ends as well as if you overnighted somewhere.

Again we aren't paid by credits so you can easy work a full 18 or 19 day month and get paid no over time. The only way to make overtime is to come in and work on one of your days off. And I just figured out that if you were at the top of the 705 pay scale. You would make (after taxes) $520 for that day of overtime.

[goingnowherefast]

Those pay numbers are 10-50 grand less than industry standard, depending on position.

As a point of comparison, I'm in a new position at my company, 1st year pay and I'm going to bring home 95-100 grand. I typically fly 60-70 hours in 30 days. Duty time in 30 days is maybe 140-150 (rough guess, I don't track duty hours). I'll do a short overtime day for about $650 maybe every other month, so I'm far from an OT slut.

None of that includes per diems, it's all pay.

[BleedAirValve]

Your comments on JB, Dash-8’s and the hangar is purely speculation unless you are one of 3 people at CMA who lives in Smithers - which clearly your not. I HIGHLY doubt you have any inside information in to the financial goings on at CMA. Your speculation and hyperbole you are delivering here is hilarious.

Again as I said - yes we could be paid better and yes some things could improve but for someone to come on to a public forum and rip in to a company that employs them - in your cause probably the only company - it’s fairly pathetic. As someone mentioned before - your part of the problem

Now take your washed up 4 bars and retire so someone more deserving and appreciative can take over.

I won’t be commenting further on this as I’ve said what I needed to say - truthfully - about CMA - as have others.

Oh - and as far as the “high turnover” - 4 in the last 6 months isn’t high turn over

From Sept 2017 to Sept 2018 CMA had a turnover of 37 pilots. I know this because I kept track based on the drafts. So that is a touch over 50% based on a roster of 60 pilots. You weren't here when they only had 2 dash captains last summer, or the winter before that when all 3 Dornier Capts quit within 10 days of each other. They quit because they had their vacation taken away.

The 704 CP is a great guy, no doubt about it. But he has no control over any of the decisions. I have talked to the people in Smithers and you are right, they will politely listen to everything a person has to say. And absolutely nothing changes.

Look at how we are paid. We aren't paid based on a credit hour. Sit down and figure out how many credits you work and then figure out how many credit hours of overtime you aren't being paid. So not only does CMA pay less than most other companies but the pilots take a double hit because they work far more for less.

Here is a little inside scoop about the past history that has led to the current situation. Years ago CMA leased 2 Dash 8 300's from someone that most people will know. But they didn't do the due diligence when signing the lease. (It would cost money to do that) The lease they had signed was so slanted in favour of the lease holder that by the end of the term they owed an impossible amount of money. No way that CMA was ever going to be able to pay it back. The only reason why the company is still operating is because the person who had leased these aircraft to CMA agreed to for go payment and took a large equity stake in the company. He is going to use the company has a piggy bank and bleed it dry. The reason we moved hangers was because he owns the new one and can make his money renting it to CMA for an enormous amount. All these "new" dash's are his. Again he is making money on those leases. At the expense of the financial stability of CMA.

If you don't believe me. Watch. CJE and DNG are the only DHC-8 that he doesn't own. They are leased from someone else. He will want those gone as soon as possible so he can move more of his airplanes in and milk the company for more money.

As for being stuck at the company and being pissed off, not really accurate. But what does piss me off is when people new to the company and the industry paint a rosy picture instead of telling the truth. Everything I have written on here is what has happened to me and others I know. In this hiring environment there is no reason for most people to sign a two year bond and make this money working under theses conditions.

For those interested

1900 fo start at mid to high 30's
1900 Capt pay scale starts a 55 000 and tops out at 75 000
705 FO's make low 40's

705 Capts fall into two categories based on whether or not the person meets contrails.

Non- contrails pay starts at 65 or 66 000 and goes up by about 3000 a year to just under 100 000
Contrail starts just over 83 000 and tops out the same. Just under 100 000

Per diems are far less than other airlines and amount to about 300 a month. This depends on when you day starts and ends as well as if you overnighted somewhere.

Again we aren't paid by credits so you can easy work a full 18 or 19 day month and get paid no over time. The only way to make overtime is to come in and work on one of your days off. And I just figured out that if you were at the top of the 705 pay scale. You would make (after taxes) $520 for that day of overtime.

[Laguardia]

Well looks like CMA is right on schedule with the weekly job ad...




Unreal...

[andyp]

Alright Glacier boy (bleed air valve). Clearly you have your panties in a bunch because your place of employment is getting knocked. Accept it pal. Your CMA cohorts that I work with who have moved on to better things have nothing but bad things to say about the place in recent years. Your coworker who is commenting about the companies current state is in a very different position then you. Within the company and career wise. Not everyone sees these places as a stepping stone, so have some respect for the guy committed to 704 (or 703) to feed his family.

“Now take your washed up 4 bars and retire so someone more deserving and appreciative can take over”

Oof. Slow your roll kid. We don’t like your kind at the airlines.

A

[77W]

Now take your washed up 4 bars and retire so someone more deserving and appreciative can take over.

I won’t be commenting further on this as I’ve said what I needed to say - truthfully - about CMA - as have others.

Oh - and as far as the “high turnover” - 4 in the last 6 months isn’t high turn over

From Sept 2017 to Sept 2018 CMA had a turnover of 37 pilots. I know this because I kept track based on the drafts. So that is a touch over 50% based on a roster of 60 pilots. You weren't here when they only had 2 dash captains last summer, or the winter before that when all 3 Dornier Capts quit within 10 days of each other. They quit because they had their vacation taken away.

The 704 CP is a great guy, no doubt about it. But he has no control over any of the decisions. I have talked to the people in Smithers and you are right, they will politely listen to everything a person has to say. And absolutely nothing changes.

Look at how we are paid. We aren't paid based on a credit hour. Sit down and figure out how many credits you work and then figure out how many credit hours of overtime you aren't being paid. So not only does CMA pay less than most other companies but the pilots take a double hit because they work far more for less.

Here is a little inside scoop about the past history that has led to the current situation. Years ago CMA leased 2 Dash 8 300's from someone that most people will know. But they didn't do the due diligence when signing the lease. (It would cost money to do that) The lease they had signed was so slanted in favour of the lease holder that by the end of the term they owed an impossible amount of money. No way that CMA was ever going to be able to pay it back. The only reason why the company is still operating is because the person who had leased these aircraft to CMA agreed to for go payment and took a large equity stake in the company. He is going to use the company has a piggy bank and bleed it dry. The reason we moved hangers was because he owns the new one and can make his money renting it to CMA for an enormous amount. All these "new" dash's are his. Again he is making money on those leases. At the expense of the financial stability of CMA.

If you don't believe me. Watch. CJE and DNG are the only DHC-8 that he doesn't own. They are leased from someone else. He will want those gone as soon as possible so he can move more of his airplanes in and milk the company for more money.

As for being stuck at the company and being pissed off, not really accurate. But what does piss me off is when people new to the company and the industry paint a rosy picture instead of telling the truth. Everything I have written on here is what has happened to me and others I know. In this hiring environment there is no reason for most people to sign a two year bond and make this money working under theses conditions.

For those interested

1900 fo start at mid to high 30's
1900 Capt pay scale starts a 55 000 and tops out at 75 000
705 FO's make low 40's

705 Capts fall into two categories based on whether or not the person meets contrails.

Non- contrails pay starts at 65 or 66 000 and goes up by about 3000 a year to just under 100 000
Contrail starts just over 83 000 and tops out the same. Just under 100 000

Per diems are far less than other airlines and amount to about 300 a month. This depends on when you day starts and ends as well as if you overnighted somewhere.

Again we aren't paid by credits so you can easy work a full 18 or 19 day month and get paid no over time. The only way to make overtime is to come in and work on one of your days off. And I just figured out that if you were at the top of the 705 pay scale. You would make (after taxes) $520 for that day of overtime.

This Bleedair fellow strikes me as a recent college grad who would work for free if they asked.

I agree with Andy: slow down Top Gun, you will get your extra stripe when you’ve earned it and are ready.

[Choppermech1986]

This Bleedair fellow strikes me as a recent college grad who would work for free if they asked

No recent college grads in the YYC FO roster, all (bar one or two) are married guys with 750+ hours.

All BleedValve is saying is that if you're so unhappy at CMA that you will consistently chastise someone who enjoys working there online, Goingnowherefast works for an outfit that pays $50k more for doing the same thing apparently, it's not as though you don't have a million opportunities in the current landscape.

Andyp, the ex-CMA folk who you work with probably left (or were let go of) a while ago, as mentioned, those who recently left (of their own accord) have gone to Sunwing, Cargojet, Jazz etc. Yes, there may have been aspects of their time at CMA that they didn't enjoy but from the impression they gave me, overall they enjoyed their time with the company.

Further to this, don't confuse the high percentage of folks who aren't passing their probation/LI as a sign of disgruntled employees, rather, see it as a sign of the high standard that the company upholds.

Hopefully the folks browsing this forum can see that there are some content employees to offset the (in my opinion) vocal minority on here who aren't so happy.

[co-joe]

What people don't seem to understand is that there is no need for CMA or any other small 705 to be "just a stepping stone". They could be a decent place to hang your hat for a good career if they just saw past the short term gain once in a while. CMA has some career people, as do Pasco, Sunwest, Cariboo, Calm Air, Westwind, Summit, heck even Perimeter (cough cough), and they all could have more.

I heard about that move where CMA just took everyone's vacation away. You just have to shake your head. Another company I know of tried that a couple years ago and they got the union they deserved for it. I'm starting to really feel that it's the only way forward for any group of pilots that cares more about their own company than the company itself seems to.

[digits_]

What people don't seem to understand is that there is no need for CMA or any other small 705 to be "just a stepping stone". They could be a decent place to hang your hat for a good career if they just saw past the short term gain once in a while. CMA has some career people, as do Pasco, Sunwest, Cariboo, Calm Air, Westwind, Summit, heck even Perimeter (cough cough), and they all could have more.

I heard about that move where CMA just took everyone's vacation away. You just have to shake your head. Another company I know of tried that a couple years ago and they got the union they deserved for it. I'm starting to really feel that it's the only way forward for any group of pilots that cares more about their own company than the company itself seems to.

Yup.

A good start would be to give a pay raise equal to the amount of (initial training costs) - (recurrent training costs) after one year. Do you really value your loyal employees less than guys off the street? You have to spend the money anyways, might as well spend it on retention instead of retraining.

[RILEY]

What people don't seem to understand is that there is no need for CMA or any other small 705 to be "just a stepping stone". They could be a decent place to hang your hat for a good career if they just saw past the short term gain once in a while. CMA has some career people, as do Pasco, Sunwest, Cariboo, Calm Air, Westwind, Summit, heck even Perimeter (cough cough), and they all could have more.

I heard about that move where CMA just took everyone's vacation away. You just have to shake your head. Another company I know of tried that a couple years ago and they got the union they deserved for it. I'm starting to really feel that it's the only way forward for any group of pilots that cares more about their own company than the company itself seems to.

I agree. There definitely could be more of an emphasis placed on pilot retention at CMA. The amount of $$ spent on pilot training must be insane considering how many pilots come & go. Improvements could be made in many aspects of the company. Leaders listen for the future of their organization, its default future is explained in the language (this thread) & nothing will change until you re-write the language/future.

[goingnowherefast]

1900 captain job ad for 80 to 90 grand a year:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=134635&sid=fb091b2d ... 639bd92842

[tsgas]

+1

I work for the sister company and while it may be “one country, two systems” the cheques still come from the same place. I’ll share my insights.

Like at every other place I’ve worked... I’ve never had a safety decision questioned. I’ve been stranded in the middle of nowhere with a broken airplane and there was no question it had to be fixed there. I’ve been asked to ferry an aircraft and after weighing options decided to do so because the risk was acceptable. I’ve never been pressured and while there has been some grumbling about down time and cost there has never been any regarding the decisions I made. If anyone told me to fly it anyways I’d be on the first flight home.

CMA lags behind us in pay and schedule but it also allows you to fly out of a Vancouver or Calgary base in addition to Prince George and Smithers.

I could go to Jazz or Encore tomorrow. I turned down WestJet mainline earlier this year. Air Canada? Maybe...

You can get the fast upgrade at Jazz and Encore. But where are you going to be? Dead end at Encore and commuting across the country at Jazz. WestJet you’d better get used to the right side of the plane unless you want to see the left side of the same plane for the same money. Air Canada making less than a “low paid” CMA 1900 captain for four years and less than half of some CMA Dash captains who are starting to push over six figures.

Ultimately if you don’t like it, leave. It’s never been easier to do so. Or go work for some other 1900 operator who pays more but where you have to deal with more BS (which is why they pay more).

DOH ! You really put a lot of thought and effort into this post BleedAirValve.