Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

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vermont
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Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by vermont » Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:46 pm

The difference between the US market and Canada is insane!

Regionals giving $30k signing bonuses, and $80k salary for flying a metroliner! People here seem to have pride in being abused and pretty much demand everyone spend 2 years on the ramp insisting it's a necessary step (which only exists here)

We have swoop captains making LESS than people flying metroliners down south! Will the industry ever get better or is our culture going to keep holding us back?
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Blueontop
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by Blueontop » Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:56 pm

vermont wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:46 pm
The difference between the US market and Canada is insane!

Regionals giving $30k signing bonuses, and $80k salary for flying a metroliner! People here seem to have pride in being abused and pretty much demand everyone spend 2 years on the ramp insisting it's a necessary step (which only exists here)

We have swoop captains making LESS than people flying metroliners down south! Will the industry ever get better or is our culture going to keep holding us back?
Nope, don’t see it ever :roll: lest be marked uncanadian..
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mixturerich
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by mixturerich » Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:19 pm

Umm calm down Nancy it’s just supply and demand, and here in Canada we still have a huge supply, for now at least.
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Laguardia
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by Laguardia » Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:44 pm

mixturerich wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:19 pm
Umm calm down Nancy it’s just supply and demand, and here in Canada we still have a huge supply, for now at least.
I hear the same story that we have plenty of supply, yet central mountain air is posting the same job ad every 2 weeks as I pointed out in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134464

I get that this is an exception and not every operator is posting an ad every 2 weeks but I hear the big 705 operators have hundreds of vacancies at the moment, and this info is coming from friends working at these companies

Probably the supply of low timers is plenty but definitely not of experienced guys
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Vsquared
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by Vsquared » Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:57 pm

My Captain friend at Air Canada tells me the bids that have been coming out for new captains are absolutely insane and he's never seen anything like it before in his career.

Would think if companies were smart they would start taking on newer pilots and training them to exactly what they want them to be. Cadet programs like that are norm over in Europe.
Laguardia wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 8:44 pm
mixturerich wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:19 pm
Umm calm down Nancy it’s just supply and demand, and here in Canada we still have a huge supply, for now at least.
I hear the same story that we have plenty of supply, yet central mountain air is posting the same job ad every 2 weeks as I pointed out in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134464

I get that this is an exception and not every operator is posting an ad every 2 weeks but I hear the big 705 operators have hundreds of vacancies at the moment, and this info is coming from friends working at these companies

Probably the supply of low timers is plenty but definitely not of experienced guys
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:56 am

And yet I still hear Jazz pilots claim to be the highest paid regional pilots in North America :roll:
Pay will never increase as long as our flag carrier pays poverty wages with the flat pay garbage. We have the lowest paid 777 FOs on Earth and I am sure that two of the next three posts will likely defend it!
We should never be happy with status quo especially during this unprecedented shortage of experience (both pilot and AME). Each union should be trying to out-do the other in terms of pay and working conditions. But as someone mentioned, that would be un-Canadian. Somehow it is bred in us to “just be thankful you have a job”
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TG
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by TG » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:02 am

Vsquared wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:57 pm
Would think if companies were smart they would start taking on newer pilots and training them to exactly what they want them to be. Cadet programs like that are norm over in Europe.
Norm in Europe is also to pay from your own pocket your Airbus or Boeing type rating (For big players like Easy Jet or Ryanair)

They do shot themselves pretty good with that...
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vermont
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by vermont » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:35 am

TG wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:02 am
Vsquared wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:57 pm
Would think if companies were smart they would start taking on newer pilots and training them to exactly what they want them to be. Cadet programs like that are norm over in Europe.
Norm in Europe is also to pay from your own pocket your Airbus or Boeing type rating (For big players like Easy Jet or Ryanair)

They do shot themselves pretty good with that...
A lot of the time it's basically an interest free loan. Let's say you're "stuck" paying $30,000 for a type rating?

You've just cut out $15,000 and 2 years of your life paying for an instructor rating and working 6 days a week. Basically the same story with the ramp route if you value opportunity cost. It's not like moving and rent in yellow knife are free?
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ahkhamza
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by ahkhamza » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:04 pm

Its our fault... We have to stand up to these old farts who keep saying they had to clean their boss's shoe and wipe their ass for five years before they were lucky enough to get right seat on a caravan. :smt014

Times have changed. Janitors make more money than us.

Its time to start a campaign for better wages. Cant even fucking afford a girlfriend/decent car/mortgage. The regionals should pay at least $55,000 to FO's. TRANSPORT CANADA WAKE UP!!! :oops: :oops: :oops:

if they can do it, so can we!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lot-strike
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shimmydampner
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by shimmydampner » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:25 pm

ahkhamza wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:04 pm
Its time to start a campaign for better wages. Cant even fucking afford a girlfriend/decent car/mortgage. The regionals should pay at least $55,000 to FO's. TRANSPORT CANADA WAKE UP!!!
What does Transport Canada have to do with it?
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vermont
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by vermont » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:26 pm

shimmydampner wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:25 pm
ahkhamza wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:04 pm
Its time to start a campaign for better wages. Cant even fucking afford a girlfriend/decent car/mortgage. The regionals should pay at least $55,000 to FO's. TRANSPORT CANADA WAKE UP!!!
What does Transport Canada have to do with it?
The could start by having AT LEAST USA level duty hour restrictions.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:42 pm

Airline license required for airline flights, both seats.
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altiplano
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by altiplano » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:13 pm

ahkhamza wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:04 pm
Its our fault... We have to stand up to these old farts who keep saying they had to clean their boss's shoe and wipe their ass for five years before they were lucky enough to get right seat on a caravan. :smt014

Times have changed. Janitors make more money than us.

Its time to start a campaign for better wages. Cant even fucking afford a girlfriend/decent car/mortgage. The regionals should pay at least $55,000 to FO's. TRANSPORT CANADA WAKE UP!!! :oops: :oops: :oops:

if they can do it, so can we!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lot-strike
What do "old farts" have to do with your plight?

Opportunities have never been better in this profession, sure.

We all own our choices, but don't discount how hard it may have been for those before you...

It should put into perspective just how much value the opportunities today hold.

What's your definition of am old fart anyway?

+1 on ATPL requirement for 705 airplanes, both seats.
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vermont
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by vermont » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:25 pm

altiplano wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:13 pm
ahkhamza wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:04 pm
Its our fault... We have to stand up to these old farts who keep saying they had to clean their boss's shoe and wipe their ass for five years before they were lucky enough to get right seat on a caravan. :smt014

Times have changed. Janitors make more money than us.

Its time to start a campaign for better wages. Cant even fucking afford a girlfriend/decent car/mortgage. The regionals should pay at least $55,000 to FO's. TRANSPORT CANADA WAKE UP!!! :oops: :oops: :oops:

if they can do it, so can we!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... lot-strike
What do "old farts" have to do with your plight?

Opportunities have never been better in this profession, sure.

We all own our choices, but don't discount how hard it may have been for those before you...

It should put into perspective just how much value the opportunities today hold.

What's your definition of am old fart anyway?

+1 on ATPL requirement for 705 airplanes, both seats.
Not him but old cart is more of an attitude.

Check any of the low hour pilot threads. Someone will say a ramp job is mostly a waste of 2 years for someone who spent $80k on training and is basically forgetting what they trained for slowly.

And people will scream and shout entitlement and how it's important to get your feet dirty like that yet nobody else in the world has that sort of arrangement.

It wouldn't be so bad if there were some gauratees or agreements in the contract.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by goingnowherefast » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:48 pm

A lot of old chief pilots and managers are the type that say "I had to wipe my bosses ass before I could be a Caravan FO, now you have to wipe my ass." Theres some senior people who are jealous of how it is now, and do what they can to make it worse for newbies, just out of jealousy. Just because it used to suck doesn't mean it still should.

Everyone should be grateful it's much better now. Everyone should be looking for gains, from top of the pay scale 777 captains to 200hr Caravan FOs.
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JohnnyHotRocks
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by JohnnyHotRocks » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:10 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:42 pm
Airline license required for airline flights, both seats.
This would definitely turn things around....although the Made in Canada solution would likely be TFWs
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Hangry
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by Hangry » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:38 am

goingnowherefast wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:48 pm
A lot of old chief pilots and managers are the type that say "I had to wipe my bosses ass before I could be a Caravan FO, now you have to wipe my ass." Theres some senior people who are jealous of how it is now, and do what they can to make it worse for newbies, just out of jealousy. Just because it used to suck doesn't mean it still should.

Everyone should be grateful it's much better now. Everyone should be looking for gains, from top of the pay scale 777 captains to 200hr Caravan FOs.
I don’t think that’s true at all. Once you “make it” I don’t think anyone’s mad it’s easier these days. In fact it’s quite the opposite.

Edit. I misread. You were talking about other types of peeps
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GhostRider6
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Re: Will we ever stop shooting ourselves in the foot?

Post by GhostRider6 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:36 pm

This is a great question ..

There’s systemic issues that play into things for sure.. ( TC, “ Capitalism”, supply and demand, unskilled labor ( college programs), and global society that’s increasingly fragmented) and the public demanding progressively cheaper tickets..

I agree with the ATPL/ hour requirements for airline ops. ( a hull loss/ significant loss of life will be needed to change this )

However, we need to look at ourselves too ..

(Generally, we as a group)

-We don’t look out for one another ..
-Our unions ( in some cases) have their best interests at heart and not the pilots.
- We are a divided group
- We will won’t back up one another-

Here’s the classic scenario :

Pilot Jim decides he won’t fly overloaded for the boss ... pilot Bill noticed this and really wants that upgrade and decides to fly Jim’s trip overloaded... Jim gets fired. Meanwhile, bill gets upgraded...then Jim decides to get a job at a new employer. The new employer knows bill and discusses with the new employer how he ( Bill) is an ace and can fly under any and all conditions and that Jim is a pussy..Jim does not get employed.. ( Jim, the pilot who holds himself to a standard) Meanwhile, bill continues to get promoted and then teaches other pilots to fly overloaded and the boss demands more weight on every trip and eventually there’s a crash ( one of the junior pilots bill mentored.. ) The new pilot who crashed the plane is charged with criminal negligence... Meanwhile, bill keeps flying and pushing the limits and Jim can’t find work. - I’ve seen this happen ... and it’s gotta stop.

- pilots accepting contracts that reduce pay for successive generations

( the commonality in the aforementioned is US)

However, is generally a world where everyone’s out for themselves ...
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