Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

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TalkingPie
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Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by TalkingPie »

Considering its relative accessibility, I'm surprised I'm not seeing more written about new pilots turning to gliding clubs to gain hours. It seems like a fun, rewarding, challenging way to build some hours while working on my CPL.

Does anyone have any experience or resources to share? As I understand it, one generally needs at least 100 hours PIC and to be checked out on tail wheel aircraft. Is there usually a small amount of pay involved, or does one simply volunteer?

The idea appeals to me for a number of reasons: building hours while doing something constructive (gliders need tow planes and I bet glider pilots could teach a new power pilot a thing or two), it's something I can do around my current work schedule (I have a fair bit of time off and my current job pays the bills), and because I have the Montreal Soaring Club nearby in Hawkesbury.
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twa22
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by twa22 »

Probably because there aren't that many opportunities to be a tow pilot, it's seasonal, and as far as I know, no gliding club actually pays to be a tow pilot. Also, I don't think you gain that many hours in a season. It's more of a hobby thing probably
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »


. It seems like a fun, rewarding, challenging way to build some hours while working on my CPL.
It would most likely be seen as hire and reward, as discussed ad nauseam on this site, and therefore not permitted unless you have a CPL. 100% illegal for a PPL if there is any amount of pay involved.
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goingnowherefast
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by goingnowherefast »

I don't think he meant "rewarding" as income, or financial reward. It would be personally rewarding to volunteer at a gliding club and do something productive instead of pounding out circuits in a 152. It will give you better hands and feet too.

And yes, earning a financial reward without a CPL or ATPL is a big no-no.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by Big Pistons Forever »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:30 pm I don't think he meant "rewarding" as income, or financial reward. It would be personally rewarding to volunteer at a gliding club and do something productive instead of pounding out circuits in a 152. It will give you better hands and feet too.

And yes, earning a financial reward without a CPL or ATPL is a big no-no.
As an active glider pilot I can say that a good tow pilot is highly regarded by glider pilots as there is a lot of anticipation and decision making to be safe, effective and efficient. Also most tow planes are taildraggers and you will get a crap load of landings so I guarantee you will be really good by the end of your first season :D
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

goingnowherefast wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:30 pmI don't think he meant "rewarding" as income, or financial reward. It would be personally rewarding to volunteer at a gliding club and do something productive instead of pounding out circuits in a 152. It will give you better hands and feet too.

And yes, earning a financial reward without a CPL or ATPL is a big no-no.
I've looked into this recently as well, and I can confirm, you can tow gliders pro-bono on a PPL, insurance requirements notwithstanding. However - and this is a BIG but - you cannot count those hours towards your CPL. Building hours, irregardless of any financial compensation, is seen as "reward" for service. I don't know if you can log those hours generally, but I can confidently say you cannot count those hours towards your 200 hour CPL requirement.
Big Pistons Forever wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 7:41 pmAs an active glider pilot I can say that a good tow pilot is highly regarded by glider pilots as there is a lot of anticipation and decision making to be safe, effective and efficient.
As an inactive glider pilot, I can second this.

If you go this route to build hours after getting your CPL though, join the club and take up soaring, too. It's awesome, and compared to powered flight, relatively cheap. You can count 50 hours' glider time towards your non-PIC CPL and 5 towards your PPL PIC time requirements as well. (CARs 421.30.7.b.iii and 421.26.6.b.B)
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Last edited by RedAndWhiteBaron on Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:28 pm
I've looked into this recently as well, and I can confirm, you can tow gliders pro-bono on a PPL, insurance requirements notwithstanding. However - and this is a BIG but - you cannot count those hours towards your CPL. Building hours, irregardless of any financial compensation, is seen as "reward" for service. I don't know if you can log those hours generally, but I can confidently say you cannot count those hours towards your 200 hour CPL requirement.
That is what the FAA has said, numerous times. But that's in the US. I've never seen that position formally adopted by Transport Canada ... anyone?
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:35 pm
RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:28 pmI've looked into this recently as well, and I can confirm, you can tow gliders pro-bono on a PPL, insurance requirements notwithstanding. However - and this is a BIG but - you cannot count those hours towards your CPL. Building hours, irregardless of any financial compensation, is seen as "reward" for service. I don't know if you can log those hours generally, but I can confidently say you cannot count those hours towards your 200 hour CPL requirement.
That is what the FAA has said, numerous times. But that's in the US. I've never seen that position formally adopted by Transport Canada ... anyone?
What specifically - do you mean legally towing gliders pro-bono on a PPL, or not counting those hours towards a CPL?

It's all second hand though, I've yet to call TC and get it from the horse's mouth, I'll give them a call in a couple days to check on the status of my medical and I'll be asking about this then,
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »

To cut a long story short, as of 2010, the latest version of 14 CFR 61.113 has an exemption that does now allow PPLs to fly glider tows for hire and reward in the US, as confirmed in this opinion:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/he ... tation.pdf

Transport Canada doesn't have a central office that produces legal opinions; individual inspectors are not empowered to opine on legal questions in any authoritiative way; very often the only way to find out what "the Minister" thinks about anything is from evidence given by the Minister's representatives at tribunal hearings. And we all know that some of those opinions are so off the wall and dumb - and have been found so by the tribunal member(s) - that they should never have been uttered.

I don't believe there's a written document from TC on the subject of towing gliders pro bono on a PPL, or what can be done with the hours. But if the glider club is charging for the tow, then that would appear to rule out the activity for the PPL: Per 401.28: "The holder of a private pilot licence shall not act as the pilot-in-command of an aeroplane or helicopter for hire or reward"

"hire and reward" is defined not in the CARs but actually in the Aeronautics Act thus: "hire or reward means any payment, consideration, gratuity or benefit, directly or indirectly charged, demanded, received or collected by any person for the use of an aircraft; (rémunération)" - emphasis mine. Not even the gliding club can be paid for the tow, if the pilot is a PPL.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

So that settles it.

Except...

CAR 401.28:
(4) The holder of a private pilot licence may receive reimbursement from a charitable, not-for-profit or public security organization in respect of a flight conducted by the holder as a volunteer for that organization if the reimbursement

(a) in the case of an aircraft owned by the holder, is paid at a rate based on distance travelled or number of hours flown and does not exceed the total of the holder’s direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight; or

(b) in the case of a rental aircraft, does not exceed the total of the holder’s rental costs, direct operating costs and the fees charged against the aircraft in respect of the flight.
So it may be legal to tow gliders pro-bono on a PPL for a nonprofit club (and legal for the club to charge for it, assuming it's a nonprofit), according to (b); almost for sure if you own the plane, and nearly as certain if you "rent" the towplane for $1 and they reimburse you $1. It certainly sounds too complicated for any reputable soaring club to deal with PPLs, though. I certainly wouldn't. EIther way, you certainly can't count the hours to the 200 hour CPL requirement as far as I can tell.

Jeez, this issue is just about complicated enough to email the minister's office directly, or ask my MP to do it on my behalf.
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Last edited by RedAndWhiteBaron on Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »

If you own your own plane, or if you rent one and are reimbursed by the not-for-profit gliding club, the reimbursement of expenses is permitted. But you are still not permitted as a PPL to be PIC of a tow-flight for which the club levies a charge. That part of the "hire and reward" is still not allowed.

I actually don't think it's complicated: the answer is no.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

So it all boils down to whether an expense reimbursement is considered "payment, consideration, gratuity or benefit", assuming that fees to a nonprofit are reimbursements for expenses. It's well established that sharing of fuel/rental/landing costs is kosher, and that's still a "payment", per se.

Look at it this way - assume I brought my own glider and my own plane to my club, and aside from the club membership fee, paid nothing and received nothing for my efforts. It seems to me that would be no different than doing that from my own private airstrip.

Now assume I did that for a friend of a friend, who reimbursed me for my costs, still out of my private airstrip. Still above board, I think? Perhaps costs legally need to be shared to remain legal?

Now move that to a nonprofit club, that is only getting costs reimbursed, and we're back to where I started on this hypothetical.

We're really splitting hairs and arguing semantics here, but I still think it's unclear. I do still think that no soaring club will risk using PPLs as towpilots, though.

(I must apologize. I do love a good argument.)
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »

What it boils down to is that if the glider club receives any payment from the glider pilot for the tow, it's hire and reward, and outside the privileges of a PPL. If the glider club provides free tows, and the pilot receives only reimbursement, then it comes down to whether TC views logged hours as a reward to the pilot.

The FAA took the view that logged hours are a reward, if the pilot intends to use them towards the requirements for a higher licence. TC has never issued a formal opinion on the subject, of which I am aware.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

So then I wonder if expense reimbursement to an individual is different than expense reimbursement to a club (which it would be, if it's a nonprofit).

Bah, we're arguing in circles. Wandering outside the providence of the CARs and the Aeronautics Act and more into general law on what constitues "payment". I have a laundry list of questions for TC, I'm sure whoever has the (mis)fortune of answering my call is just going to love me. I'll ask them.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by ant_321 »

And if you want to throw in another layer of cloudiness, what about all the cadet officers that fly tow planes for them with just a PPL and get paid for it? I have a friend who spent every summer while he was in university flying tow planes at the gliding centre to help pay his way through. He said he was paid to be there as an officer and not to fly the airplane so it was legal. I always thought that was quite a sketchy loophole.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by Bede »

Ultimately, it’s how the TATC interpretes the CARS not what some random TC inspector opines.

I know of no TATC decisions that deals with glider tow pilots with PPL. There certainly is nothing saying that gaining hours is considered a “reward” and can’t be used towards the 200 hrs.

I gained some of my hours as a tow pilot. Most of the other pilots were PPL as is common at tow clubs. No one has ever had TC issues.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by AirFrame »

RedAndWhiteBaron wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:27 pm So that settles it.
No.
EIther way, you certainly can't count the hours to the 200 hour CPL requirement as far as I can tell.
Until you find something in the CARs or Aeronautics Act that says you can't use the hours toward your 200 for your CPL, you can.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by AirFrame »

photofly wrote: Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:37 pmBut you are still not permitted as a PPL to be PIC of a tow-flight for which the club levies a charge. That part of the "hire and reward" is still not allowed.
Wrong. TC has reviewed and approved this operation at at least one gliding club that i'm aware of.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by photofly »

The minister can (and does) tacitly approve of lots of activities that appear to contradict the regulations. If an inspector believes that something is OK, then they don't take it any further, and it's all ok.

However, one difficulty with Transport Canada is a lack of consistency. The only guarantee you have that something that was approved by inspector P at Club A isn't some years later going to become the subject of an enforcement action by Inspector Q at Club B is something in writing to that effect, or else an activity that is clearly permitted by the relevant regulation. Dozens of TATC cases attest to that. In this case it seems fairly clear it's not permitted by the regulation. So that's not something I'd hang my hat on. But let everyone read the law and decide for themselves!
Until you find something in the CARs or Aeronautics Act that says you can't use the hours toward your 200 for your CPL, you can.
I agree. You were still PIC, even if the regulations say you shouldn't have been. It was the FAA that said the time didn't count, and the FAA has no jurisdiction here.
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Re: Building Time as a Glider Tow Pilot?

Post by TalkingPie »

Thanks, everyone, for weighing in.

In my own short research on this I came across the exemption by the FAA that pilots could be paid for glider towing with only a PPL. That's why I wondered whether there may be a similar situation in Canada. Given how little flight instructors are paid, I assumed from the start that a tow pilot would be earning a pittance or less.

The SOSA Gliding Club, apparently one of the oldest and largest clubs in Canada, lists on their website the following requirements to be a tow pilot with them. I assume that "P1" is PIC.
Tow Pilot Requirements
With glider license:
•PPL or higher
•50 hours P1
•tailwheel signoff with a minimum of 5 hours tailwheel

Without glider license:
•PPL or higher
•100 hours P1
•tailwheel signoff with a minimum of 5 hours tailwheel
https://www.sosaglidingclub.com/tow-pil ... ments.html

The Regina Gliding and Soaring Club lists similar on their website. Additionally, they offer compensation in the form of reduced-price or free glider time and reduced-price aircraft rental while off-duty. http://www.soar.sk.ca/rgsc/TowPilotInfo ... nformation
TOW-PILOT QUALIFICATIONS

1) An experienced glider tow plane pilot is a pilot having not less than 100 hours flight time as pilot-in-command on aeroplanes, including not less than 100 glider tow flights.

2) No person shall act as the pilot-in-command of an aircraft towing gliders unless one of the following requirements are met or exceeded:

a) If a tow plane pilot holds a Glider Pilot License and has performed five training tow flights under in-flight supervision by an experienced glider tow plane pilot, he shall:
i) hold a pilot license valid for aeroplanes,
ii) have acquired not less than 45 hours pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes, and
iii) have not less than 5 hours pilot-in-command flight time on the tow plane type;

b) If the tow plane pilot is not the holder of a Glider Pilot License but has performed five training tow flights under in-flight supervision by an experienced glider tow pilot, he shall:
i) hold a pilot license valid for aeroplanes,
ii) have acquired not less than 65 hours as pilot-in-command flight time in aeroplanes, and
iii) have not less than five hours pilot-in-command flight time on the tow plane type; or

c) If the tow plane pilot has not performed five training tow flights under in-flight supervision by an experienced tow plane pilot and does not hold a Glider Pilot License, he shall:
i) hold at least a Private License valid for aeroplanes,
ii) have acquired not less than 100 hours pilot-in-command flight time experience, of which 25 hours may have been acquired in gliders, and
iii) be thoroughly familiar with the operating limitations of the glider being towed and, with necessary emergency procedures.
Unfortunately they don't list any links to regulatory information, but if larger clubs in Canada can openly post these requirements, I'd hope that they're within the law.

The concern that the hours couldn't be counted towards a CPL is something I hadn't thought of; maybe they can't. However, I'd be building PIC time and experience that I could use towards my first job post-CPL, so it's not a huge concern for me.
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