That didn't take long...

[shimmydampner]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=138650

Transwest Air is currently looking for Full Time Term DHC-2 Beaver Pilots to join its team for the summer season in Otter Lake, Saskatchewan.

DHC-2 Beaver Pilot
Full Time Term
May - Oct 2020

The Successful candidate may be required to enter into a financial commitment for training costs prior to the start of training.

So is this a promissory note, or money up front.... FOR A BEAVER CHECKOUT!?!? I suppose I shouldn't be surprised.

[TailwheelPilot]

Don't be so outraged...their job postings have mostly had that sentence for the past several years. Nothing new. Looking at what remains of their posting history, a King Air 200 Captain posting and a King Air 350 F/O posting did not have it (or I missed it) while King Air 100 F/O and Captain postings, King Air 200 F/O, King Air 350/1900 Captain, Twin Otter F/O, and Beaver pilot postings have had it. One or two said it was a promissory note.

[shimmydampner]

You'll have to forgive me for not paying close attention to Transwest job ads for the past several years. However, I do still think it's somewhat outrageous to sign a bond for a beaver job, considering the cost of a beaver checkout is pretty much just that of fuel at 80 litres/hour or so. So, what are we talking here? Maybe $1000?

[mmm..bacon]

Not only that, but where are you going to go with your fresh Beaver checkout in hand? It's not like there's a lineup at Air Canada..

[trey kule]

considering the cost of a beaver checkout is pretty much just that of fuel at 80 litres/hour or so. So, what are we talking here? Maybe $1000?

I know nothing about Transwest, but this kind of “its only gas”. Thing really needs clearing up.

Lets start with the training requirement. Usual initial is 7 hours, and while there are some ways to reduce this, most reputable companies want a new beaver pilot to get at least 7 hours.
Nowthe fuel;
Beaver burns 25 US gal,, about 95 litres an hour.
95 x 7 hours x $2.00 litre....about $1300....

Now. 7 hours for a training pilot for flying, plus ground school dual, plus insurance, routine inspection time, plus overhaul reserve, and pay and accommodations for the new hire ( though I have heard that some scummy operators do not pay pilots at all for training.)

But just fuel, right?

I mention this because there are just so many young pilots out there who fly extended downwinds, unnecessary overhead joins, bit of sightseeing...or worse, parker penning an extra .1 or so in the JL. .because they believe it is only gas or paper.
It costs some small companies thousands a year when it is all added up.
Years ago, when sky trackers just came in, and management watched the times and could see deviations, block times dropped by 3% in one operation I was familiar with...huge savings.
And when pilots were asked the most common response was “ its just some gas”

Then there is the issue if they walk off the job, and the cost of rehiring ,and operational interruptions.

Again, I have no idea about Transwest, but if it is money up front, that is despicable. And right now, I can see pilots hanging onto any job.....until the recall happens...then they will be “so sorry, but, you know, they gotta go.,,right now....bye...”

I apologize for the drift and rant in advance .

[ayseven]

It should be the cost of doing business, just like every other business. The difference is there are not thousands of young, hungry "pilots in waiting" in other businesses.

[goldeneagle]

considering the cost of a beaver checkout is pretty much just that of fuel at 80 litres/hour or so. So, what are we talking here? Maybe $1000?

I know nothing about Transwest, but this kind of “its only gas”. Thing really needs clearing up.

I was going to post something similar, but you said it much more eloquently than I had thought out.

One thing I'll add to what you said. Over the years it's been common for pilots that are struggling to remain employed, but have a bit of capital backing them, to go out and buy an airplane then set up 'abc new charter company'. Because they dont see past the gas bill, rates are rock bottom and they essentially cream the low end of the market for a season or two, then an engine comes due. When the engine comes due, airplane is parked, and in many cases, never flies again. Tied up for a long time in outside storage with liens, then the folks holding paper come along and take a few parts to try recover something. Now there is nothing left but a shell with the more valuable parts removed.

Next time you are at an airport, see an old junk navajo behind a hangar, no engines or props, a few windows and the airstair door missing, this pretty much explains how it got there. In some cases, sawhorse holding one wing up, and pieces of one of the landing gear missing. We've all seen that airframe, most active airports have an example out behind one of the hangars.

[Lost Lake]

You should read it again. May be required to pay for training. Not the same as PCC. They seemed to have trouble finding qualified pilots in the past. Not a bad company. You stay at a 5 star lodge, free food, good tips. I might even apply.

[shimmydampner]

most reputable companies want a new beaver pilot to get at least 7 hours.

Most reputable companies are NOT going to ask a Beaver pilot to pay for their training.

Now. 7 hours for a training pilot for flying, plus ground school dual, plus insurance, routine inspection time, plus overhaul reserve, and pay and accommodations for the new hire ( though I have heard that some scummy operators do not pay pilots at all for training.)
But just fuel, right?

Well, sure there are some other expenses. That's why I didn't say it's ONLY the cost of fuel. But really, it pretty much is. Everything you've listed is certainly valid, but relatively minor compared to the cost of fuel, and is most certainly the cost of doing business. Just like the boss' time they spent "interviewing" our pilot on the phone for 10 minutes. The bandwidth used on the internet package to download the guy or gal's resume. The kilowatt hours on the power bill that kept the lights on during that time. It all adds up for sure.

...or worse, parker penning an extra .1 or so in the JL. .because they believe it is only gas or paper.

Who parker pens air time? Jeez, pen whip flight time like a gentleman.

Then there is the issue if they walk off the job, and the cost of rehiring ,and operational interruptions.

Again, I have no idea about Transwest, but if it is money up front, that is despicable. And right now, I can see pilots hanging onto any job.....until the recall happens...then they will be “so sorry, but, you know, they gotta go.,,right now....bye...”

Yes, that happens. And if it's not justified, it's unfortunate. I'm not actually opposed to some sorts of bonds where the cost of training is a legitimately large sum of money, there's no money exchanged up front, and the training (usually of the type rating variety) is providing the trainee with real value added to their resume. However, doesn't the timing of this seem just a little too coincidental to you? The "pilot shortage" bubble suddenly bursts and within a few weeks, a (let's face it) large company like Transwest is asking for young pilots to pay for a single engine, day VFR PCC? To me, it reeks of greasy opportunism.

[GoinVertical]

Who parker pens air time? Jeez, pen whip flight time like a gentleman.

Quote of the Day right here

On the topic at hand though:

Training costs are part of the cost of operation of an airline. How the company chooses to represent that cost is up to them. Bond, promissory, up front, whatever it's all going to come down to the bottom line and how much they deem a pilot to be worth.

That all said I think it would be advantageous for companies to instead say "Training costs $X000 so the first year's salary reflects that. At the end of 1 year/season you will receive a $X000 retention bonus equivalent to the cost of your training."

But then you have "greedy selfish pilots" who are short - sighted and see another company is offering $5000 a year more for first year, and jump on it, despite having to sign a bond or even pay up front. As everyone always says, we do this to ourselves.

[goingnowherefast]

Who parker pens air time? Jeez, pen whip flight time like a gentleman.

I knew a guy who added air time frequently. Company was building a case to fire the guy when he up and quit with no notice. Everybody was happy!

[phillyfan]

Not sure where the number 7 hours was pulled out of? 3 Hours is the standard on a single engine piston airplane.

7 hours is a lot of training. The costs of that are also significantly more then fuel costs. That is time off the next 100hr, that now won't be revenue time. Time on the engine and prop that need overhauls. As well as a significant time investment by the poor bastard who is training the newbie. Nothing is scarier then training newbies except for possibly watching a newbie fly away with 4 oblivious passengers afterwards. Realistically 7 hours would be an investment in the neighborhood of $3000.
If a person actually needed 7 hours, then they almost certainly will not be a highly skilled driver, which inevitably will result in less efficient and more costly way of operating your airplane and a substantially elevated level of assumed risk by the operator. Which could also result in higher insurance premiums for that operator.
With a thousand or more unemployed float pilots around. Why bother? Get a guy who has a PCC on a Beaver good until June 1st and transfer his training file and PCC. Fly around with him for an hour and rest easy knowing your plane is in good hands.

Sadly, It's no longer a pilots market. The music stopped. We just turned back the clock 30 years to a time where Instructors lived on Kraft Dinner, Float Pilots started on the dock for $800 a month and your first IFR job was copilot on Navajo in Pickle Lake after 4 seasons of instructing or float flying.

[iflyforpie]

considering the cost of a beaver checkout is pretty much just that of fuel at 80 litres/hour or so. So, what are we talking here? Maybe $1000?

I know nothing about Transwest, but this kind of “its only gas”. Thing really needs clearing up.

Lets start with the training requirement. Usual initial is 7 hours, and while there are some ways to reduce this, most reputable companies want a new beaver pilot to get at least 7 hours.

Isn’t an initial 3 hours? Maybe 4? Sorry, but the Beaver isn’t exactly a rocket ship nor is this an initial float rating.

Now. 7 hours for a training pilot for flying, plus ground school dual, plus insurance, routine inspection time, plus overhaul reserve, and pay and accommodations for the new hire ( though I have heard that some scummy operators do not pay pilots at all for training.)

Ground school is a fixed cost unless they are brining in a contract instructor or renting space for a “Beaver course”. I’m willing to bet the “ground school” consists of the sum total of “here, read these books, do this CBT, know these speeds.. and be ready for the test” while the CP pencil whips hours spent training.

Insurance is a fixed cost too. So is their accommodations but it’s part of compensation as well otherwise no pilot would go there.

Only airframe and overhaul reserve are direct costs on top of fuel.. but since it’s half the hours you said it’s pretty much the same $1000 figure.

But just fuel, right?

Pretty much.

I mention this because there are just so many young pilots out there who fly extended downwinds, unnecessary overhead joins, bit of sightseeing...or worse, parker penning an extra .1 or so in the JL. .because they believe it is only gas or paper.
It costs some small companies thousands a year when it is all added up.
Years ago, when sky trackers just came in, and management watched the times and could see deviations, block times dropped by 3% in one operation I was familiar with...huge savings.
And when pilots were asked the most common response was “ its just some gas”

Not really. Most pilots are pretty efficient. Overhead joins have saved me many times and maybe added a whopping 30 seconds to the flight. Count it out. For how painfully long it seems it’s a whole 0.0083 of an hour! Think fuel is expensive? Try an accident! Pad the flight time sure because that gets you more hours and also makes the company more money if they are billing by flight hour. Short the air time so the company doesn’t pay as much for maintenance which are based on air time, not flight time.

And for doing that... saving hours in .1s for the company...
damn right I’m going to go for a sightseeing joyride every so often with a customer I like for a few $$$ of gas. Sky trackers don’t matter.. they are mostly for safety and dispatch and logistics, not micromanaging air time. No company I worked at ever cared that I took longer on one flight than I normally do. That’s a sure way to kill pilot morale. The only time I was questioned was to ADD time to a logbook entry because their program and my math didn’t jive and even though my math was right they wanted to follow their program for simplicity.

Then there is the issue if they walk off the job, and the cost of rehiring ,and operational interruptions.

Treat your pilots well, and they won’t. Nobody wants to look for a job mid-season. The only ones available are going to be ones others walked away from. Use a performance or retention bonus instead of a bond or money up front.

Plus.. that’s part of business. Every other business has to deal with losing and rehiring employees. Why is aviation so special? Especially for a single engine plane almost anyone can fly with minimal training?

[Rowdy]

Thats probably in there to dissuade some of the 'laid off' FO's and junior captains from showing up, flying for a month and a half and running back to Jazz/Encore the second the industry spools back up end of july or august.

A promissory note or bond for a beaver? Shows the level of candidate they expect to see....

[ayseven]

Mind, it is a very nice airplane to fly.

[Heliian]

Thats probably in there to dissuade some of the 'laid off' FO's and junior captains from showing up, flying for a month and a half and running back to Jazz/Encore the second the industry spools back up end of july or august.

A promissory note or bond for a beaver? Shows the level of candidate they expect to see....

Ya, they're looking for a pilot.

You nailed it the first line, and it's not just juniors, even the senior guys who need work will do the same thing. Tire kickers.

[Otto Pilot]

It's just a regular bond. They don't want to hire someone who is going to leave as soon as another company gives them a call (if/when that will happen). This is nothing new. Also can't have people driving it into reefs and lakes that they have never been to.