How to Move Forward

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Shinyjetsyndrome
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How to Move Forward

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome »

I’m in a crappy spot to be in, and I’m sure there’s many more like me thanks to Covid. I was hoping someone might have some suggestions or advice.

I have less than 500 hours and thanks to what was a pilot shortage, I was very lucky and privileged to find employment at a 705 carrier, and I left my previous job at a 703 up north. Unfortunately, the day before I was supposed to fly out for my groundschool, it was cancelled due to Covid. I briefly returned to my 703 job, but I was laid off from there as well.

Now I’ve got tons of student debt, no job and hardly any flying experience. How would you move forward from this? I’ve considered starting my flight instructor rating, but I’m not fond of the idea of increasing my debt with no guarantee of a job at the end. I can imagine that if any FI jobs do open up, they’d go to ex-instructors who were laid off from the regionals. The job board has completely dried up too, except for that “apprentice pilot” position at Wasaya.

My current plan is to try and find a retail job for the winter and start my FI rating, or to just stay current and then try out the famed road trip next spring in hopes of finding a ramp gig. Are those good ideas or would you try something else? I’d really appreciate any input. A career as a pilot feels pretty hopeless right now and there doesn’t seem to be any real recovery on the horizon.
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RedAndWhiteBaron
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by RedAndWhiteBaron »

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:19 am A career as a pilot feels pretty hopeless right now and there doesn’t seem to be any real recovery on the horizon.
That depends on how far away the horizon is. Unfortunately, you do need to eat in the meantime.

I'm in the same boat in some ways, just starting a career as a pilot in the middle of all this. But where I'm not in the same boat is, I have a previous field I can fall back on and pick up contract work, at least temporarily.

I'm just putting one option out there - take the time to learn some other trade if that's feasible. Don't give up on becoming a pilot, but rather, use the time to give yourself a plan B. This isn't the first time aviation has collapsed, and I doubt it will be the last.
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MrAviator19
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by MrAviator19 »

Sorry to hear about your situation. I was about to make the jump from 703 to 705 this summer but those plans got swatted like a bug too. Thankfully, I never officially quit my 703 job. The aircraft I operate and the bare minimum number of guys needed on it to run two rotations are the only reasons why I'm still flying.

If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely think seriously about getting an Instructor's rating while keeping a second job on the side. It will still take you anywhere between 4-6 months to complete the rating and hopefully by then, this side of the industry will start to look decent again. I know it's a gamble especially with another $10K you'll have to dish out for the rating, but aviation in general is a big gamble as we've seen during the pandemic. Why not use this opportunity to get that PIC time, your AA's signed off and real experience? Because let's be honest - if you got a 705 job offer with less than 500 hours, you're one of those that the aviation community doesn't look too kindly upon.

Instructing along with 703/704 ops will be the first ones to recover. Exactly how long that could take is anybody's guess right now but you do have options. I've made my peace with the current climate and believe me, it wasn't easy since I have a wife. And even though I might not like the on-call rotational schedule at my job, I see this as an opportunity to catch up to my peers in flight time (I'm close to getting a Captain's upgrade and AA's signed off) and be prepared when the market picks up again.

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fur1ough
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by fur1ough »

It's not a race.
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MrAviator19
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by MrAviator19 »

fur1ough wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:54 am It's not a race.
For someone who entered the industry late from a different career and still FOing in 703 in their mid-30s, it's a driving factor. It doesn't always mean I'm racing against my peers, only catching up to where I need to be in my own mind.

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fur1ough
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by fur1ough »

Fair enough I also started in my 30s so I know what your mean. Just don't forget to enjoy the time in 703, it will likely be the best flying you ever do. From a pure aviators standpoint.
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ayseven
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by ayseven »

If you were laid off, you will be called back. Relax, and do the things you wanted to do with your time before but had no time for. Get a day job for food.
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bc-6
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by bc-6 »

Im in a similar situation as others where they are on reduced hours potentially close to lay off. When the subsidy ends I m not sure what ill do . I m not a pilot but an AME with 16 years in the industry.
My question is for someone in their late thirties early forties, do you find a job to get you through if layoff happens or do you change carrers ? I d stay in trades but not sure what id go in for . Any feedback
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fish4life
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by fish4life »

Now is not the time to look down upon a “pilot apprentice” position. The pilots who worked ramp jobs were the first ones to get seats when things start moving again and a lot better than retail being completely out of the industry.
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FOD_Vacuum
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

For what it’s worth, I have 5000 hrs atpl mostly captain multi turbine time in 703,704 and 705(jet) and still no bites on flying jobs. It’s gonna be a tough few years so planning ahead and maybe going to get my real estate license as I have nothing else to fall back on, and living off CEWS and CERB is quite simply not cutting it.

The problem is that I am on lay-off and also on the bottom of the seniority list as I was only hired at my airline at the end of last year. Many 703/704 won’t hire someone like me because they know I may jump ship when the airline calls you back, which may not necessarily be true given my circumstance of being right at the BOTL which may actually take quite a while to get a recall.
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Ash Ketchum
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by Ash Ketchum »

FOD_Vacuum wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:48 pm For what it’s worth, I have 5000 hrs atpl mostly captain multi turbine time in 703,704 and 705(jet) and still no bites on flying jobs. It’s gonna be a tough few years so planning ahead and maybe going to get my real estate license as I have nothing else to fall back on, and living off CEWS and CERB is quite simply not cutting it.

The problem is that I am on lay-off and also on the bottom of the seniority list as I was only hired at my airline at the end of last year. Many 703/704 won’t hire someone like me because they know I may jump ship when the airline calls you back, which may not necessarily be true given my circumstance of being right at the BOTL which may actually take quite a while to get a recall.
I agree that its a tough time for guys with time as well. I have also realized that employers in non-aviation industries don't value pilot experience and they actually look negatively upon it (maybe because they think you will leave to fly again). I took out all my pilot experience from my resume and have finally started getting interviews based on what I studied in University.
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McKinley
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by McKinley »

My boat.. Family, kids etc.

I got a job at a local shop sweeping floors and doing retail. People somehow thought that flying an airplane would mean I could learn a retail/ inventory system and figure out how to run his shop on day 1 though osmosis. ( it didn’t work for him or me) It was a stark reality.. I’m not owed anything ! I’ve always relied on ramp jobs and their familiarity for downturns. ( bad move)

I wonder if he could fly a circling NDB approach into a gravel strip in the rocks at night in minimums? Haha!

I’m going to go and find a career counsellor sometimes an objective third party can help ...Aviation has been a huge part of my life and my identity... I have lots of other stuff That I do outside of flying. With this being said, I’m feeling utterly lost. I always knew a pandemic would be the finger of god for the industry and I was naive to think the day would never come when this would be a reality... but it is a reality and I need to face it. This does not mean it does not sting a ton. I’ve put a ton into my career ( like others)I’ve been through downturns and have had my setbacks outside of my control impact my career... and I still kept on chugging away despite it all.. this is not easy for me

I’m trying to do go out into nature for do self care and do meditation. I’m trying to be gentle and realize when I’m not coping and where it’s coming from.

If you’re feeling the same.. you’re not alone.
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Shinyjetsyndrome
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome »

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it.
MrAviator19 wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:44 amIf I were in your shoes, I'd definitely think seriously about getting an Instructor's rating while keeping a second job on the side. It will still take you anywhere between 4-6 months to complete the rating and hopefully by then, this side of the industry will start to look decent again.
Yes that still seems like my best bet right now. Most people I look up to in the industry have suggested I pursue it. I’m still trying to find a job to support the cost, but if no other opportunity presents itself in the meantime, I think instructing is what I’ll end up doing.
fish4life wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:39 pm Now is not the time to look down upon a “pilot apprentice” position. The pilots who worked ramp jobs were the first ones to get seats when things start moving again and a lot better than retail being completely out of the industry.
Woah there. At no point did I suggest that I looked down upon that position. I’d be very grateful to have an opportunity like that. I simply commented that it’s the only position I’ve seen recently (that I qualify for) on the job board, which is in stark contrast to only a few months ago.
fur1ough wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:27 pm Just don't forget to enjoy the time in 703, it will likely be the best flying you ever do. From a pure aviators standpoint.
From my relatively short experience in the 703 world, I personally feel like that’s just what pilots tell themselves to feel better about being paid poverty wages, flying aircraft in questionable weather that you were pressured to fly in, while also dealing with all sorts of bs like drunk pax on the reserve, flying an unknown load of cargo because the scale is broken, or washing an airplane that’s been cleaned already at the end of a 14 hour day to make it seem like you’re busy to please the big boss who shows up randomly looking for someone to pick on. The safety culture is pretty messed up too. One of the senior captains openly boasted about busting minimums thinking he’s some kind of hero and he was certainly looked upon as one by a horrifying majority of the pilots there. Why the hell did I take my human factors class seriously? It was useless knowledge apparently. Or the DFO getting all worked up during a safety meeting because apparently a couple pilots said negative things about the company during an audit. The flying itself was really fun, but everything else diluted the joy a bit for me. It’s quite possible that I’m just an entitled millennial. This is only my opinion and like I said above, I’d be happy to have a job on the ramp, dispatch, washing aircraft, anything at this point. This is not the time to be picky.
McKinley wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:31 pmAviation has been a huge part of my life and my identity... I have lots of other stuff that I do outside of flying. With this being said, I’m feeling utterly lost. [...]
I’m trying to do go out into nature for do self care and do meditation. I’m trying to be gentle and realize when I’m not coping and where it’s coming from.

If you’re feeling the same.. you’re not alone.
Definitely feel the same. I’ve also found that meditation and getting out and doing exercise has been a great help to relax and take things day by day. Hopefully things pick up sooner than the analysts predict!
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link821
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by link821 »

Left my 703 gig for a regional, regional ground school cancelled. 703 job is pretty much gone due to lay offs. Lots of instructors have come back to my local flight school. Hard to not feel like this might mean leaving aviation to get a trade or some education outside aviation, for when Covid22 happens I guess...
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mijbil
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by mijbil »

SJS , here's my 2 cents. One guy at my company who came in just after me and was at our previous company has been laid off 8 times. Every time he has fallen back on his trade - carpentry in his case - to pay the bills. A trade may take up to 4 years. There will be demand for it. Too many were told that "a degree" will get you something good for a job. It's we have a million barista's with Masters degrees making minimum wage. Get a trade.

As far as flying goes......in a way I don't recommend this because of all the waits in training, the stunning bureaucracy and all the other little bits of BS that drove me and many others bananas, but if you really want to fly you could give the RCAF a bell. You'll never make AC 787 left seat money, but you will get about $50K to start and at Captain 10th pay level about $120. If, IF, you can do 25 years you get a DB pension. The only other's getting that are other government slots. As an old engineer told me "Don't get off the gravy train until your 20" It's worth literally a million dollars. I get 50K for breathing right now. With zero commuting expenses and CERB I'm not much further behind than before the music stopped.
You have a 50% chance of getting helos, 35% multi's and 15% jet. Once you are trained at the operational level, you will be busy like you have no idea. The schools (Moose Jaw and Portage) are in the flatlands but are a great rest from the continuous ops of a line squadron. The BS will always be there. Example: this years big push for writing annual Personnel Evaluation reports is to have them written in non binary transgender pronoun fashion. The senior leadership in their quest to be a general will jump through all these BS hoops created by the massive massive bureaucracy in Ottawa when they use the military as a political/social engineering hobby horse. If you can deal with that (mostly ignore it) then then certain types of mil flying is really good. Fire bombing is about the closest civilian equivalent I can think of except in the mil, there will be "secondary duties" = makework joe jobs that somehow seem to be oh so important but aren't really. I loved flying at 300' in the fjords of BC or once doing a VFR lap of every Hawaiian island except Kauai, and we did that the next day heading over to the massive range to the west. VFR from CYYC to CYQQ - fantastic. Playing hooky for 15 minutes with Catania radar's blessing so we could go take a quick peek into the caldera of Mt Etna (from upwind thank you) before going onstation off the Libyan coast for 8 hours. What a crew morale boost. You can go all over the world (machine dependent) and will certainly go all over Canada, but the bureaucratic BS is intense. Full medical dental and moving costs etc and you won't do as many hours as a civ job, but they tend to be quality hours. I finished as an instructor in CYPG teaching on the mighty King Air. Student trips all done? Instructor mut trip. The best were the instructor mut trips - usually on a weekend to somewhere. The pin board went from Key West to Alaska. One of my best was a double hop into Moab. We went mountain biking, canyoneering, and rock climbing. Incredible freedom with an airplane and you got paid to do it.
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YVRYEG
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by YVRYEG »

McKinley wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:31 pm My boat.. Family, kids etc.

I got a job at a local shop sweeping floors and doing retail. People somehow thought that flying an airplane would mean I could learn a retail/ inventory system and figure out how to run his shop on day 1 though osmosis. ( it didn’t work for him or me) It was a stark reality.. I’m not owed anything ! I’ve always relied on ramp jobs and their familiarity for downturns. ( bad move)

I wonder if he could fly a circling NDB approach into a gravel strip in the rocks at night in minimums? Haha!

I’m going to go and find a career counsellor sometimes an objective third party can help ...Aviation has been a huge part of my life and my identity... I have lots of other stuff That I do outside of flying. With this being said, I’m feeling utterly lost. I always knew a pandemic would be the finger of god for the industry and I was naive to think the day would never come when this would be a reality... but it is a reality and I need to face it. This does not mean it does not sting a ton. I’ve put a ton into my career ( like others)I’ve been through downturns and have had my setbacks outside of my control impact my career... and I still kept on chugging away despite it all.. this is not easy for me

I’m trying to do go out into nature for do self care and do meditation. I’m trying to be gentle and realize when I’m not coping and where it’s coming from.

If you’re feeling the same.. you’re not alone.


I have to say, reading through some of the posts in this thread has been really up lifting. Sounds cheesy I know.

Someone has already mentioned it, but I too have completely erased flying/aviation positions from my resume to help find work. I felt like I was erasing a part of my identity and needed to accept this is the new normal. For my family.

I managed to find a part time job on a loading dock to help pay the bills. As fortunate as I am to have the extra income, it’s hard not to feel out of place when I now walk into work. It’s been a long time since I’ve done anything else but fly.

But it’s good to know there are others doing the same thing right now and feeling the same. I have just under 7000 hours. No bites on jobs as well.
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fur1ough
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by fur1ough »

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote: Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:29 pm
From my relatively short experience in the 703 world, I personally feel like that’s just what pilots tell themselves to feel better about being paid poverty wages, flying aircraft in questionable weather that you were pressured to fly in, while also dealing with all sorts of bs like drunk pax on the reserve, flying an unknown load of cargo because the scale is broken, or washing an airplane that’s been cleaned already at the end of a 14 hour day to make it seem like you’re busy to please the big boss who shows up randomly looking for someone to pick on. The safety culture is pretty messed up too. One of the senior captains openly boasted about busting minimums thinking he’s some kind of hero and he was certainly looked upon as one by a horrifying majority of the pilots there. Why the hell did I take my human factors class seriously? It was useless knowledge apparently. Or the DFO getting all worked up during a safety meeting because apparently a couple pilots said negative things about the company during an audit. The flying itself was really fun, but everything else diluted the joy a bit for me. It’s quite possible that I’m just an entitled millennial. This is only my opinion and like I said above, I’d be happy to have a job on the ramp, dispatch, washing aircraft, anything at this point. This is not the time to be picky.

I can definitely understand how some people's experience would be this way. But it by no means is the norm, there are many 703 companies out there that have great owners/bosses and treat their pilots well.

I for one worked at a great 703 and enjoyed my time there. The flying was challenging and there was always something to deal with like you mention but when you have the support of you CP or Ops Manager who allow you to make a decision it makes a huge difference.
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Shinyjetsyndrome
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome »

mijbil wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:37 am SJS , here's my 2 cents. One guy at my company who came in just after me and was at our previous company has been laid off 8 times. Every time he has fallen back on his trade - carpentry in his case - to pay the bills. A trade may take up to 4 years. There will be demand for it. Too many were told that "a degree" will get you something good for a job. It's we have a million barista's with Masters degrees making minimum wage. Get a trade.
I really wouldn't mind learning a new skill or trade, but again the money aspect comes into play. I just don't have enough money for going back to school. Especially not for multiple years. I can make instructing work, but it's the employment aspect that worries me a bit. If I had a ton of cash, I'd definitely take this opportunity to go back to school and diversify my skills.
mijbil wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:37 am [...] if you really want to fly you could give the RCAF a bell.
I actually have an application in with the RCAF right now. I understand it's a 50% office job with lots of bureaucracy, but the quality of the flying would more than make up for it imo. I don't care what aircraft or helicopter I'd get streamed in - it would be a fantastic gig and a lifestyle I think I'd enjoy. I'm not confident I'll make it far in the selection though with the amount of things working against me. My high school marks were god awful, my vision is going downhill, and I'm 24 years old competing against young and sharp 18 year olds coming straight out of high school. I hope they take post secondary marks into consideration because I did significantly better in college once I matured a bit (3.8 GPA). As far as I understand, I meet V2 vision requirements (correction required) which is the minimum required according to the CF website, but I've also read on various forums that this is not true and you need 20/20 perfect vision :rolleyes: I won't be the one to eliminate myself though. We'll see how far I can get! The process is definitely not a quick one though, especially with all of the Covid restrictions.
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Shinyjetsyndrome
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by Shinyjetsyndrome »

fur1ough wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:19 pm I can definitely understand how some people's experience would be this way. But it by no means is the norm, there are many 703 companies out there that have great owners/bosses and treat their pilots well.

I for one worked at a great 703 and enjoyed my time there. The flying was challenging and there was always something to deal with like you mention but when you have the support of you CP or Ops Manager who allow you to make a decision it makes a huge difference.
That's great to know. I was pretty shocked at how things worked at the place I was at, but I suppose it's a bit unfair for me to paint all 703 companies under the same brush. I'm glad you managed to find a place like that.
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McKinley
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Re: How to Move Forward

Post by McKinley »

Shinyjetsyndrome wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:41 pm
fur1ough wrote: Sun Jul 12, 2020 2:19 pm I can definitely understand how some people's experience would be this way. But it by no means is the norm, there are many 703 companies out there that have great owners/bosses and treat their pilots well.

I for one worked at a great 703 and enjoyed my time there. The flying was challenging and there was always something to deal with like you mention but when you have the support of you CP or Ops Manager who allow you to make a decision it makes a huge difference.
That's great to know. I was pretty shocked at how things worked at the place I was at, but I suppose it's a bit unfair for me to paint all 703 companies under the same brush. I'm glad you managed to find a place like that.
I had similar experiences...

You don’t sound like an “ entitled millennial” you sound like someone I’d really like to work with.

For me, it sounds like you want a safe and fair workplace.
I left 703 for 705 for this exact reason.

FYI - some or the pilots who were willing to brown nose the CP, OPS Man were worse than management itself.
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