Pilots in waiting NWAL Post

[shimmydampner]

I don't think it would fly in any of the trades, and it sure as hell wouldn't fly in mine. I fail to understand why this is seen as an acceptable rite of passage in aviation

I dare say that putting a fresh out of school 20 year old behind a keyboard is a very different thing than putting them behind the controls of an airplane. I'm not sure that the IT industry is an apt comparison to aviation.

At the end of the day, ramp positions don't exist because every operation is run by a cabal of sadists who are gratified by the drudgery of young pilots. They exist because pilot supply is greater than demand and this has the effect of throttling back times to the flight line. If you feel like waiting your turn in a spot that will lead directly to a flying position, or if you would rather take your chances outside aviation is up to you. No one is forcing you, and no one is expecting you to endure some imaginary, long term hazing ritual. But either way, the pace of movement in the industry is beyond anyone's control and it's up to you to either deal with the reality or not.

[“Bob”]

Ramp sucks.

I never did it.

Now I get paid to eat and nap and stay at home. Maybe fly an airplane occasionally.

Not everyone has to be a slave.

[YYZshill]

yup ramp sucks. Did the instructing route for a year and didn't have any regrets at all. Still ended up at a northern airline flying 705 turboprops, but waaaaaay better investment to my future than sit in thompson/pickle/red lake hauling ass with no motivation and no chance of getting on a plane for god knows when. This old school mentality needs to go away.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I dare say that putting a fresh out of school 20 year old behind a keyboard is a very different thing than putting them behind the controls of an airplane. I'm not sure that the IT industry is an apt comparison to aviation.

I could buy that argument for a single pilot aircraft, or at an operation that promotes/hires incompetent captains. But not where the capability exists to mentor a junior pilot. And I dare say that putting a fresh out of flight school 20 year old who just spent 12 months on the ramp into the right seat is no safer than putting one there who spent only a month on that ramp.

At the end of the day, ramp positions don't exist because every operation is run by a cabal of sadists who are gratified by the drudgery of young pilots. They exist because pilot supply is greater than demand and this has the effect of throttling back times to the flight line.

This is true. It is also true that the inevitable consequence of the supply of labour exceeding demand, almost everywhere it happens, is creeping abuse of the labour supply. I'll have to grant you though - in that way, IT is quite different; the demand for labour far exceeds the supply of it.

If there were regular probationary periods for junior pilots, say around three months like every other line of work, before you got to the flight line I would fully support and understand this practice. Hell, even a guarantee of a flight ops position after two years I could somewhat get on board with - at least in that case, the terms of the employment agreement are clearly defined. But not with these 18-24-months-may-be-longer-we-won't-actually-commit-to-anything timelines. It is a lopsided employment arrangement that gives inordinate powers of abuse to a single party by too ephemerally defining the terms of the agreement.

[shimmydampner]

This old school mentality needs to go away.

Why? What mentality? The one where people do what they think is best for them and will give them the best chance at success in a tough industry?
Every year there are x number of entry level flying jobs and probably in the neighbourhood of 5x entry level pilots vying for those jobs. So what's your solution to this perceived ramp problem? Given the reality of these constraints, how would you improve things for everyone? If you can build a better mousetrap, I'm all for it. I just think that until you get to 5x/5 pilots, it's a fantasy.

[shimmydampner]

I could buy that argument for a single pilot aircraft, or at an operation that promotes/hires incompetent captains. But not where the capability exists to mentor a junior pilot. And I dare say that putting a fresh out of flight school 20 year old who just spent 12 months on the ramp into the right seat is no safer than putting one there who spent only a month on that ramp.

You're not wrong there. Either way, for the first little while they will likely be more of a liability than an asset.

[YYZshill]

Sunwing, TUI, Easyjet, Cathay, Jazz have all shown that a 250 hour wonder can operate a 737/A320/SO on Widebodies. Cream of the crop of course, these students/pilots show that attitude through school and their education. You can't teach experience, but the attitude is there that they're willing to learn and are capable of excellence. Training has been catered and adapted for these inexperienced pilots but it works.

Leave the ramp guys to designated rampies. Pay them well, make sure they're treated well and competent at their jobs, instead of having a huge turn over rates of 2-3 months. I'd rather have a competent rampie, than a unmotivated pilot awaiting training, wannabe or apprentice pilots living in the middle of no where paying exorbitant living expenses that get paid minimum wage with no eta on when they're going to end up right seat.

This old school mentality needs to go away.

Why? What mentality? The one where people do what they think is best for them and will give them the best chance at success in a tough industry?
Every year there are x number of entry level flying jobs and probably in the neighbourhood of 5x entry level pilots vying for those jobs. So what's your solution to this perceived ramp problem? Given the reality of these constraints, how would you improve things for everyone? If you can build a better mousetrap, I'm all for it. I just think that until you get to 5x/5 pilots, it's a fantasy.

[2112]

The system is not going to change anytime soon guys and you are doing yourself a disservice if you think you are more worthy than the literally hundreds of other low time pilots currently looking for work. At this point in time if I was a 200 hour pilot again I would be grateful for any job that gets me near airplanes. 2019 was probably as good as we were ever going to have it but it's over. No one wants new pilots to have to work the ramp but you guys are a plenty and if you are too good for a ramp job then there are hundreds of others that aren't. I'm sorry those of you starting out have terrible timing but for the next two years you are either ramping or instructing if you are lucky.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

The system is not going to change anytime soon guys and you are doing yourself a disservice if you think you are more worthy than the literally hundreds of other low time pilots currently looking for work.

I am not arguing I'm more worthy than anyone else; I'm arguing that everyone is worthy enough to not be taken advantage of, and that an employment arrangement that can be unilaterally dictated and altered only by the employer is fundamentally unfair and takes advantage of the party in the weaker position.

No one wants new pilots to have to work the ramp

Interesting. I honestly hadn't considered that, really.

but you guys are a plenty and if you are too good for a ramp job then there are hundreds of others that aren't. I'm sorry those of you starting out have terrible timing but for the next two years you are either ramping or instructing if you are lucky.

You're not wrong there. The supply of labour vastly exceeds demand, and as a result, people get taken advantage of. To be fair, I honestly have no idea how to improve things, and there may in fact not be a way. Doesn't mean I like it though, even if I play the game.

[ayseven]

You guys are all trying to make sense of a world like none other. Don't like it, don't do it. Think of starting your flying career as the casting couch. You may be just the person for the big role!

[“Bob”]

I did that.

I thought I was going to be the giver but it turns out they needed a receiver.

[phillyfan]

Watching entitled pilots and wannabes squirm, really is the best part of Covid.
For those that are not feeling sorry for themselves. Give it a shot.
I worked there for 4 years or so. It was a good time. Mostly. If its not too late.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

Watching entitled pilots and wannabes squirm, really is the best part of Covid.

And therein lies the problem.

This attitude, right here, is uncivilized, and is quite frankly an offense to human dignity. Some people enjoy watching others squirm. Better people enjoy watching others actually succeed.

['97 Tercel]

What?

[ayseven]

If Mr Baron, you don't feel you are young enough for the job, and don't want to do go off for a life of adventure, don't. The employer is looking for the best person for the job, and a pilot is that person. He or she understands airplanes, will take care not to run the forklift into the fuselage, or leave the floats full of water etc, and he might stay a year or two. It is an apprenticeship. Why is this so bad?

It has been lovely that all these young people who have worked so hard straightening their ties, and doing all that classwork, have been able to slide into regional airline positions, but that is in the past. A freak of circumstances. This is not the real world of aviation, for good, bad or otherwise. And no, I am not better than they are, and although I have been to a few universities, I have not been to an aviation college.

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

I was not commenting on this job or Northwest specifically. I cannot speak about either as I have had no experiences with them. Apologies if thias appeared to be the case and I derailed the thread.

It's more the "pilot in waiting" idea in general. While I don't have an issue with it per se, it's the uncertainty around it I abhor - The "6-24 month waiting time, depending on company demand" caveat. I don't think that practice is acceptable. Now if, on the other hand, the arrangement is "you will work a ramp for one year, after which you will copilot a King Air. If we think that's too much iron for you at that time, we'll put you in one of our Navajos.", it is an entirely fair arrangement in my view. Please understand that I am not arguing against pilots starting out by mopping floors and hauling drums. I am arguing for more certainty. It is perhaps a fine point, but it is an important distinction I think.

And no, this is not an apprenticeship. Those are defined in legislation. This is an unofficial mentorship. But let's not get hung up on the definitions.

If after 3 months, an employer still can't figure out whether or not to keep someone, they have bigger issues. After 3 months you should know whether or not I can drive a forklift without spearing the floats. There is no world in which I can justify spending an entire year before figuring out whether or not someone is a good fit for your company - so the "we need the best person for the job" argument doesn't work with me. And again, this is not the same as a 12 month ramp or dock position, after which it is agreed upon that some kind of career advancement will take place. You should still know within a few months weather or not your new hire will work out.

And yeah, it's the way aviation has always been, for better or for worse. I happen to think it's one of the worse parts of the field, so here I am arguing with a bunch of strangers that there should be a better way, even if I can't define one.

But as for:

Watching entitled pilots and wannabes squirm, really is the best part of Covid.

My opinion stands. Taking pleasure in the misery of others is despicable.
(Unless it's a YouTube Ow-My-Balls video. Those can be hilarious.)

[Hangry]

Just shut up and get to work. Seriously. Either you or someone else.

Either you want it bad enough or you don’t. Those that do, do what it takes.

[shimmydampner]

It's more the "pilot in waiting" idea in general. While I don't have an issue with it per se, it's the uncertainty around it I abhor - The "6-24 month waiting time, depending on company demand" caveat. I don't think that practice is acceptable. Now if, on the other hand, the arrangement is "you will work a ramp for one year, after which you will copilot a King Air. If we think that's too much iron for you at that time, we'll put you in one of our Navajos.", it is an entirely fair arrangement in my view. Please understand that I am not arguing against pilots starting out by mopping floors and hauling drums. I am arguing for more certainty.

Your idealism belies a naïveté about how an aviation business actually operates. Promising someone a flying seat after x number of months sounds great in theory, but what happens when that time comes and there is not a position available because the industry movement is stagnant and no one has moved on?

[RedAndWhiteBaron]

It's more the "pilot in waiting" idea in general. While I don't have an issue with it per se, it's the uncertainty around it I abhor - The "6-24 month waiting time, depending on company demand" caveat. I don't think that practice is acceptable. Now if, on the other hand, the arrangement is "you will work a ramp for one year, after which you will copilot a King Air. If we think that's too much iron for you at that time, we'll put you in one of our Navajos.", it is an entirely fair arrangement in my view. Please understand that I am not arguing against pilots starting out by mopping floors and hauling drums. I am arguing for more certainty.

Your idealism belies a naïveté about how an aviation business actually operates. Promising someone a flying seat after x number of months sounds great in theory, but what happens when that time comes and there is not a position available because the industry movement is stagnant and no one has moved on?

Oh, certainly I am naïve regarding the matter. I accept that. I've always been idealistic.

Why would it be a burden to place a newbie in a right seat in place of someone else for the odd pairing? You're still (or at least, could be) paying everyone the same, assuming a salaried position. There may be some labour strife over loggable hours, but that's the only concern I can envision. Is it that once you've made it to a right seat, you are now entitled to not perform ramp/dock/dispatch/following/whatever duties again? Because that sentiment smacks of hypocrisy, considering many of the comments in this thread.

I suppose these arrangements depend on there being "ramp boys" and "fly boys", and never the twain shall meet? I don't understand why those duties cannot be shared where there are insufficient flyable hours to allow for everyone who's paid their dues to actually fly.

Just shut up and get to work. Seriously. Either you or someone else.

Either you want it bad enough or you don’t. Those that do, do what it takes.

The employment arrangements I am speaking out against fail to even define "what it takes". 12-24 months depending on company demand tells me that the boss's nephew is quite likely to land the seat I have been patiently awaiting while paying my dues.

Besides, either add something constructive, respond to my arguments in a civil manner, or shut up and stay out of the thread. Your dismissive and condescending attitude is contributing nothing.

[ayseven]

I do think, at the end of the day, Hangry is right. It is a harsher world out there than Mr Baron wants it to be.