Skydive Toronto????

Sunny · Post by **Sunny** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:38 pm

I got an offer to come to a ground school course for Skydive Toronto, but they want u to pay for your training. The training costs $949.00 which includes one solo jump, ground school and a check out on a 182 (3-5 hrs). Nobody in the course are guaranteed a job. I am desperate to fine out if this is a scam! Please somebody let me know what they think!

Flyin' Hack · Post by **Flyin' Hack** » Mon May 10, 2004 4:46 pm

No idea about Skydive Toronto, but I have talked to another diving outfit, and they required a certain number of hours on type, C182 also, which they said that you would have to pay for too, but they would finance it for you so it's not all in one shot. You get to log the hours, you get some additional training, so you aren't walking away empty handed. I'll tell you what though. If you've been reading the forums, following my posts... if I was in TO, and had the cash, I'd jump at the chance. The money issue might be true, but it might be a test to see if you're willing to stick around. Then they might offer you a reimbursement of the cost once you are hired, or 1/2 price. Who knows. I'd do it.

My 2 cents.

Murdoch86 · Post by **Murdoch86** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:11 pm

Once your get checked out (if you do) there is no for sure job.

and if you get a job... your pay is your hours

in other words, you work for free...

I don't know about you, but I need $$$ to pay for stuff... And the flying I do I don't do for free.

Last time you were in taxi, did the guy drive you for free?

1 hour of flying is 1 hour of pay

D

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Mon May 10, 2004 7:50 pm

Here is a good rule of thumb for figuring out whether or or not you should be paid:

If someone is paying to do something with the airplane, and someone else is making a profit from it, then you should be paid.

Or think about it this way:

If no one agreed to pay for training and fly for free, would the company close its doors or would they start providing training and paying their workers?

Flyin' Hack · Post by **Flyin' Hack** » Tue May 11, 2004 12:37 am

I agree completely with Murdoch86 and ahramin. (Especially the part Murdoch86 said about the taxi guy driving for free, no they don't! If someone can't/doesn't/won't pay, it's called Transportation by Fraud, and is an arrestable offence.)

The company I spoke to was likely a different situation than what Skydive Toronto is. In my case, I'd be paying for the 10 hours required on the plane, then no pay for flying, but it'd be just on the weekends. Something to do if you have a weekday job, with weekends off to build flight time and have some fun. It wouldn't be anything full-time, and I wouldn't take a situation like that from a for-profit outfit. But part time weekend stuff for a non-profit cost-recovery outfit would be fine. I did the tow pilot thing last summer, and it was good. Couldn't really call it work either.

I did see a posting in the local flight school for a job. I called the guy up, it was the entire summer, move up there, they give you room and board and a float rating, and then you work your a$$ off with no coin in your pocket at the end of the summer. He said he'd already had it filled.

ahramin is right, everyone has to stop doing that across the board. No one should work for free. I'd have more respect for someone that was on EI all summer than working for nothing. Or perhaps he found a pogey pilot to work for him, but that'd be just wrong.

Working for free should be a crime too. Non-profit organizations are different. I'd find out whether Skydive Toronto is or is not, and go from there.

Yoyoma · Post by **Yoyoma** » Tue May 11, 2004 1:11 am

I knew the board had discussed this outfit before!!!

Here's some reading for ya!

Skydie Toronto
Again
And again
And...

Flyin' Hack · Post by **Flyin' Hack** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:20 am

Yoyoma wrote:Here's some reading for ya!

And what a read...

I take back almost everything I said. I'd stay away from that outfit big time. Seems like anything would be better.... my advice, you wanna "volunteer" for free... go join a glider club and tow them up there on the weekends. Could meet some great contacts and have some fun. The one I flew for charge for the SAC membership, the club membership, but no cost for the checkride. You get some decent hours and get to tear around on the ATV when you aren't flying. Lots of fun! And the money you sink into the memberships, you get back the equivalent hours your first afternoon, and a charitable donations reciept at the end of the year.

Glad I'm no where near TO and still have the $900 I don't have to spend.

We gotta stick together. No one work for free, EVER!

Man, I love this place!!

m.L · Post by **m.L** » Tue May 11, 2004 8:42 am

Every year they pull this stunt and there has been alot of pilots on here that have been given the same offer, myself included. Dont waste your money. One hour in the plane for 900 bucks is a lot of money and then if your chosen out of the other 30 or 40 guys there you are rewarded with working for free.

N8 · Post by N8 » Tue May 11, 2004 10:03 am

Not only do you work for free, but there is a chance you will take your weekends and flush them down the toilet.

If the weather is crappy or customers don't come you spend the entire day on the ground. No pay and no time time in the log book.

If on a typical weekend you go up 4 times at 0.5 hours a flight thats 2 hours a week. Talk about a long road to an ATPL!

1500 (for the ATPL)
-200 (for the 200 hours you have in your log book at the end of a CPL)
------
1300

1300/2 (for the average number of hours you will get in a week)
= 650 week

650/26 (26 weeks in a jumping year, May - October)
= 25 years

Flying Newf · Post by **Flying Newf** » Tue May 11, 2004 11:13 am

No one should Fly for free...

Unless its for a charity. This outfit offered me the same deal, I told them to shove it.. Not only are you working for free and paying for your training with no chance of reimbursment, but you also have to sit there whether or not there is flying for you.
Stay away...

I'd Rather Be Flying · Tue May 11, 2004 4:53 pm

I'll echo a few of the other posts...stay away from that place. I looked into it a few years back (when I was looking for work), and it seemed like a bad idea then. I can't imagine it being much better now.

And whatever you decide to do....DO NOT WORK FOR FREE!

Good luck.

wan2fly99 · Post by **wan2fly99** » Thu May 13, 2004 4:22 am

I had the same letter a few years ago.

I talked to Joe who runs the palce and asked him, when
I finish the course, when do I start to fly.

He then told me they would decide who they want.
He wanted $500 at that time.

So he gets a whole bunch of people, they pay this maoney and he already
has pilots. Good way to make some gas money.

I told him where to stuff it

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Thu May 13, 2004 9:44 am

A. How did any of you get a letter from an organization out of the blue?

B. I feel so unloved, not getting an unsolicited letter like everyone else.

C. "Supposedly" someone had to sell you out, your flight school? Isn't that illegal, can't you sue??

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Thu May 13, 2004 8:41 pm

Questions for y'all...

It's obvious that everyone dislikes the concept of working for free (I agree with that. What about an apprenticeship program?

Specifically, over the course of 2.5 years, with accomodations and a small subsidy (just enough to live frugally). The apprenticeship would cover the basic AME license, as well as about 500 hours of rotary wing time - with specific training goals. The initial cost is $10,000. No guarantees are given, but strong candidates may be offered long-term employment after the training.

Does the value of the training and time count as "pay"? If you look at the costs to buy each item outright, it is:

500 hrs * $400/hr (lowballing it)=$200,000
AME Tuition = $9,000
Living costs = $21,500 (lowball again)

Bear in mind that up front, the candidate is told that there will be 80 hour work weeks at certain times of year, and that most work will be non-flying.

Is this a case of prostituting oneself, or a case of busting your ass, and getting paid in training instead of cash?

m.L · Post by **m.L** » Thu May 13, 2004 10:02 pm

Ok, I will bite.

Is this something that you are offering or is it something you are doing right now.

At 10 gees for 500 hours of rotor there would be a stampede to your door. I just priced out the rotor conversion at Springbank and for 60 hours and 10 hours for turbine indorcement it would cost me 34 grand.

Jumpus Pilotus · Post by **Jumpus Pilotus** » Fri May 14, 2004 4:55 am

Don't take skydive Toronto training. Like many others said, you are going to pay lots of money and there is no jot granted at the end. And most of all, their training is not good for other drop zones. I know they say that they will provide you with a "Jump Pilot Certificate" but it doesn't mean anything to other drop zone. Most of chief pilots will train their new pilots themself.

That's what happened to me. I got my training for free and flew 350 hours on C-182 and C-206 just flying on weekends last summer from May to October. I had 22 flights for a total of 10.5 hours just last sunday.

Working on a drop zone in a fun way to build hours.

cyyz · Post by **cyyz** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:46 am

M.L is correct W Squared.. 500 hours in 2 years and an AME license..

LoL.. That would be a corp that would be either broke in a month or rich beyond it's wildest dreams, everyone would sign up for this..

w squared · Post by **w squared** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:59 pm

To answer your question, this is something that I'm thinking about - not something that I'm offering or something that I've started.

As far as being legit, I've talked to other folks working in the same part of the industry in the same part of the world, and they say that the gent running the operation is legit.

The rationale given is that the high risks involved with a low-time pilot are offset by the benefits of not paying the AME apprentices in cash. The owner of the company wrenches on and flies his own machines, and wants his staff to do the same. Folks that can legally do this are pretty rare, and I guess that he figures he should train them himself.

As far as everyone signing up for this?

Let's get serious! How many people are willing (or even capable) of consistently putting in 80-100 hours each week for a good chunk of the year...for a very small amount of cash? I know from personal experience in a different business that almost 75% of people can't hack that kind of stress on body & mind for more than a month.

I'm not talking about a long day with commuting and family responsibilities adding up to 100 hours a week here - I'm talking about starting work at 5 or 6 am, and going non-stop until anytime between 7 and 10, every day. Sleep deprivation, wear and tear on the body, and accumulating stress all take their toll.

I've watched guys break down over the course of two or three weeks, and I've also seen guys snap under the strain.

My question wasn't about validity/legitimacy/value of the idea...I just wanted to know if the reward was sufficent that there's no danger of becoming a pariah, blackballed for the way that I got into the industry.

bdw2 · Post by **bdw2** » Sat May 15, 2004 12:50 am

my opinion...

from what ive read there are 2 schools of thought on this issue: one, the pilot that thinks working for free is pimping yourself. the other is the pilot who wants nothing more than to get his ass in the air and is willing to do anything (within reason) to live the dream. I fit into the latter group. If youve done your research OUTSIDE our industry you'll see that other professions have internships and other pissed on jobs whereby uni-level students, smarter than some execs, get peanuts for hard work. Its true. If YOU were lucky to get a nice job opp where you get paid 5 bones an hour to clean toilets for a year before you touch an airplane than congradulations -some of my best buds are doing that, and im jealous. But that wasnt in the cards for me even after i sent 200+ beauty resumes across canada and tapped my connections. Skydive pilots arent cutting any "more deserving" pilots out of loop, so cool your jets. we all want the same thing. Im doing the course. Im taking the risk. If the industry was like old times then maybe it'd be different and we could all hop on nice cushy king air 200's, but its not anymore. soo shut it and see it from a different view. Im not rich and im not willing to make decisions that affect my integrity. These notions are false to assume. hope ive made my point clear. but im open to any comments.

N2 · Post by N2 » Mon May 17, 2004 4:31 pm

Yep you go for it boy, but don't come whining back when Joe takes your money and gives you FA in return! Don't forget to mention on your resume that you worked at SDT for free, that really impresses CP's. He's making money hand over fist while pilots grovel for crumbs and it's all thanks to guys like you! Just thought I would repost my original post on this subject for your reading enjoyment!

I flew for Joe many moons ago and I quit because this guy is making money hand over fist but refuses to pay his pilots. It just makes it bad for everyone when guys like this basically rape you for your skills. Have more pride in yourself than to go this route. Even a buck a jumper would be better than nothing. DO NOT work for free! You didn't spend all that time and money getting your licences to be a volunteer. If you want to volunteer do it for a worthwhile cause like Hope Air or something of that nature. There were about 11 in the class I was in and only 2 or 3 of us actually made it onto the planes. Some guys never even got the so called check out.

Also another thing to consider is that a lot of people in this business really frown on guys who work for free. You think buying a PPC can get people upset, try telling them that you’re dragging down the profession by working for squat!

Being a commercial pilot is a profession and as such should be compensated. Joe Chow smarten up you bandit and start treating your pilots like they are part of a skilled work force! You wouldn’t teach sky diving for free so have some respect for the pilots and pay them! If it weren't for the pilots you wouldn't have a business. Hope you sleep well!

Skydive Toronto????

Skydive Toronto????

Drop Zone

think