Pilot in Waiting?

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imac0960
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by imac0960 »

A lot of interns end up doing a lot of crappy jobs and employers abuse them as well. They are using it as a way to get free labour. Internships are designed to bridge a gap between schooling and experience needed for employment. A few internships don't lead to employment. Why pay someone when they can just get a new grad to work for free.

The problem of exploiting people isn't solely in aviation. Employers are able to be picky because of the current job market. It's a race to the bottom and it's only going to get worse
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Colonel Sanders
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Colonel Sanders »

An articling lawyer (intern) will work in
the field of law, for which he trained, for
long hours and poor wages, until he is
fully qualified (pass the bar exam)

A resident doctor (intern) will work in
the field of medicine, for which he trained,
for long hours and poor wages until he
is fully qualified.

A rampie will clean toilets - which is
NOT what he was trained to do, as a
pilot - for long hours and poor wages,
because unethical employers exploit
a high supply and low demand.

Who here learned to clean toilets in
flight school, to prepare them for their
work career?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

imac0960 wrote:A lot of interns end up doing a lot of crappy jobs and employers abuse them as well. They are using it as a way to get free labour. Internships are designed to bridge a gap between schooling and experience needed for employment. A few internships don't lead to employment. Why pay someone when they can just get a new grad to work for free.

The problem of exploiting people isn't solely in aviation. Employers are able to be picky because of the current job market. It's a race to the bottom and it's only going to get worse
It's a race to the bottom because nobody researches the JOB MARKET before going to flight college. I took a tour of Con College when my daughter was looking at being a pilot. The director claimed that all their students were employed. As pilots? "Well no, they can't get jobs as PILOTS right out of school, but they all have jobs on ramps and docks....."

Welcome to the exploitation of people too stupid not to be exploited.

And, that's the bottom line. Keep drinking the Kool-Aid there kids!

Illya
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dahspeers
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by dahspeers »

To the guy who kind of spazzed there.

I didn't buy a type rating. I did however spend the last two years "dispatching" and doing the PRM duties for the flight school I did my license with, while working on my CPL which I only finished in November. I also have farming and a couple trades in my background, which most float operators seem to like.

When I worked in garages, owners would hold the apprenticeship carrot in front of kids to get them to sweep the floor and wash cars. Much like some operators hold a flying carrot in front of pilots to get them to scrub toilets. I knew that game before I got into aviation. It's a great way to get cheap labour with a long line of replacements.

My first offer, the carrot was sitting in the right seat on "busier" days. I don't have my Multi-IFR. Experience? Yes. Loggable time? Nope.
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A346Dude
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by A346Dude »

I will never understand how it's acceptable to flip burgers but it's not acceptable to work the ramp while waiting for a flying job. One offers a very good chance to advance to flying some day, the other offers none.

It's a shame that's the way it is, but until there are more entry-level pilot jobs than there are entry-level pilots, nothing will change.
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Diadem
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Diadem »

I never cleaned a toilet while I worked on the ramp. I moved some freight and towed some planes, but I spent a lot of my time learning the operation; I helped with flight planning and customs, I took ground schools, I learned the COM inside and out, and I got my qualifications completed for DG, first aid and CRM. Starting flying right away would have been nice, but I took advantage of the limited opportunity that I had.
I started my training at the absolute best time in the job market: guys who graduated the year before me were hired straight into Navajos, and upgraded within six months. There was nothing that would have indicated to me that I wouldn't have the same bright future. Instead, when I finished my training, the recession was at its worst and there weren't even ramp jobs available. I spent a few months looking for direct-entry flying jobs, then a few more looking for ramp jobs, and after six months of unemployment I bit the bullet and got my instructor rating. The economy was so bad that there weren't enough students to go around. I needed to work, and I wasn't about to give up on the career for which I'd worked so hard. I was offered a job on the ramp, with an upgrade to a flying position whenever a spot opened up, with no minimum wait time. If I hadn't taken it, is still be making minimum wage and wouldn't be flying; I'm making a lot more money now, so it was by far the best option in the long run. I don't know why anyone would endorse endless poverty just to make some stubborn point.
Two final questions: First, if a lawyer or doctor can't find work in his or her chosen profession, even in an entry-level position, what should he or she do? Whine and pout to mommy and daddy until they get more money and sit around waiting for a job, or get a job doing something else? Would you be so principled about a doctor working as a janitor in a hospital to pay the bills and make contacts?
Second, why did it become unacceptable for me to work as a rampie the day I got my CPL signed off? I worked as a rampie to make money before I was licensed, but the day I got a C on my license I couldn't do that anymore on principle?
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

So you "bit the bullet and got my instructor rating....." What a favour that was for your students! An instructor who didn't want to be there in the first place.
Illya
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A346Dude
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by A346Dude »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:So you "bit the bullet and got my instructor rating....." What a favour that was for your students! An instructor who didn't want to be there in the first place.
You do realize most people do a job that isn't their absolute first choice right? At least for some of their working life.

Most instructors will not instruct their whole career. It doesn't mean they don't want to be there and it doesn't make them bad people.
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trey kule
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by trey kule »

One offers a very good chance to advance to flying some day, the other offers none.
A perfect example of rationalization.

There are pilots who go from working other jobs to pilots jobs directly,

We see on here the success stories that involved networking . We hear about successful road trips. And of course, the rampie who made it.

Are they typical? Does everyone who goes on a road trip get a job ?

And of course we read that new pilots must work the ramp. Why? Because they make statements like the quoted one as if they were true.

It is simply supply and demand, if Canada cranked out 10000 doctors a year, or 20000 dentists the situation for them would probably be the same.

But we have all these govt subsidized aviation colleges cranking pilots out like there is no end to it. Pilots without experience, and you simply can not substitute training for some experience.

The bush has shrunk, so to speak, so there are less opportunities to get experience in that area.

Instructing seems to be one of the default areas which is to bad, as to many of the instructors don't have the experience, the maturity, or the motivation to be instructing. Results in the real professional instructors having to work for lower wages as the colleges and FTUs are not looking for quality..they are looking for low cost instructors. After all, poor instructors ultimately mean more revenue for them..

It is interesting that in some undeveloped countries you actually have to demonstrate aptitude to get a student spot in a flight school...here, not so much.

The politicians who are ultimately responsible for tax payer subsidized training should really be taking an independent look at exactly how many college grads are working as pilots instead of simply believing what some self serving college board tells them.

I think it would go a long way to relieving the present situation.
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FOD_Vacuum
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by FOD_Vacuum »

I remember seeing Wasaya advertising a job labelled as "Pilot Apprentice" the other week...Duties included hangar work, loading aircraft and office work etc. I lol'd pretty hard :smt023
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ReserveTank
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by ReserveTank »

One offers a very good chance to advance to flying some day
"some day" isn't good enough. It's trash. Call it crazy, but when you apply for a flying job, you should be flying . Either you're qualified or you're not.

I've dealt with these types over the years and they are pathetic at best-Guys with 400 some odd hours working ramp or dispatch willing to throw each other under the bus for an hour in the right seat.

The market is saturated with this mess. These are the guys driving your WAWCON in the gutter, and I have no respect for them. And I voice it.
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metal
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by metal »

You're not applying for a flying job, at least that's how it is in my company. You're applying for the job at hand, be it on the ramp, in cargo, reservations, ops etc and are interviewed accordingly. They don't give two shits if you're a pilot at that point, only that you'll do the job you're interviewing for properly.

As said multiple times in this thread, you can either take a job completely unrelated to anything in aviation like flipping burgers while waiting for a position, or you could work for a company and learn the ins and outs and be somewhat around what you want to do while waiting for a position.
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trey kule
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by trey kule »

What exactly is a "pilot apprentice" then, if they do not care if you can fly or not?
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cdnpilot77
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by cdnpilot77 »

It means that your CPL is a license to learn real life flying not FTU "dream world" flying...I'm quite certain I've heard that here once or twice before. So, by the true logic, this should be applied to a flying position only! After all, an AME apprentice works on airplanes right? Not on vacuums or toasters?
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jsous2
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by jsous2 »

Its funny, as I read everyones posts, I started contemplating on accepting the job offer I got for up North. I've been working part time at my home town airport building up my resume but when I go to apply for a job..no luck. Its been like this now for the past 6 months and I'm at the point now where I can either get a full time job flipping burgers or accept this so called "pilot in waiting job", But the catch is I gutta make my decision fast cause my student loans are about to bite me in the ass with payments.
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jsous2
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by jsous2 »

dahspeers wrote:I'm a 200hr wonder. Was offered a ramp position. The contract specifically mentioned keeping the bathrooms and parking lot clean. I'm a pilot, not a janitor. Turned it down as soon as I cooled down enough to turn it down politely. Three days later I was offered a flying job. Problem solved. Was actually offered three jobs, just from e-mailing resumes. If I didn't have those other two offers, I still would've turned down scrubbing toilets.

Wanna be a good guy and share those other companies that offered you a position (PM if u want!) . I am in the same boat as you were in before…300 hour pilot with student loans to start paying off.. was offered a job advertised as a "pilot in waiting" position.. I don't wanna take it but I'm in need of some $$$$$ but more importantly to start flying.
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Diadem
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Diadem »

jsous2 wrote:Its funny, as I read everyones posts, I started contemplating on accepting the job offer I got for up North. I've been working part time at my home town airport building up my resume but when I go to apply for a job..no luck. Its been like this now for the past 6 months and I'm at the point now where I can either get a full time job flipping burgers or accept this so called "pilot in waiting job", But the catch is I gutta make my decision fast cause my student loans are about to bite me in the ass with payments.
This is precisely my point: Why get stuck in a minimum-wage position that won't lead anywhere when you could get a slightly better-paying job that has career advancement opportunities? Because of some idiotic principle? Low-timers can't find direct-entry flying jobs, and that's not going to change if they're just waiting around for a job to be handed to them. No one is entitled to a job just because they passed the CPL tests, which is something just about anyone can do considering the standards and that there are no limits on the number of times one can re-take a failed test. If a low-time pilot decided that he or she wanted to go work for Air Canada as a rampie while waiting for a flying position to open up, would anyone take issue with that? Or is it only ramp jobs that would lead to flying positions which should be off-limits for licenced pilots? If it's the latter, then your logic is completely warped and you're making a totally arbitrary distinction.
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Illya Kuryakin
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Illya Kuryakin »

Did anybody bother to check the job market before spending a king's ransom learning to fly? Hello, there are no jobs. Still, like lemmings they continue to flood the marketplace with more talent than can ever be used.
Teaching is the same right now. Probably many other professions. The time to do your homework is before you take out student loans.
Confederation College tells students that they're training for flying positions. Sure you are. Yum. Sunshine.
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Airmanship Police »

I remember seeing Wasaya advertising a job labelled as "Pilot Apprentice" the other week...Duties included hangar work, loading aircraft and office work etc. I lol'd pretty hard
Now add to the list making sure the door is properly secured...
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Diadem
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Re: Pilot in Waiting?

Post by Diadem »

Illya Kuryakin wrote:Did anybody bother to check the job market before spending a king's ransom learning to fly? Hello, there are no jobs. Still, like lemmings they continue to flood the marketplace with more talent than can ever be used.
Teaching is the same right now. Probably many other professions. The time to do your homework is before you take out student loans.
Confederation College tells students that they're training for flying positions. Sure you are. Yum. Sunshine.
Illya
Yes. As I posted earlier, and you obviously ignored, when I started my training jobs were available in excess, but that changed abruptly. The present condition of the job market tells one nothing about future career prospects.
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