Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

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dialdriver
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by dialdriver »

tbaylx wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:10 am
Hellocopter wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:20 pm From worldmeters.info...

chance of death for:
50-59 year old is 1.3%
40 - 49 year old 0.4%
30 - 39 year old 0.2%
20 - 29 year old 0.2%

so let's just say for simplicity's sake there's a 0.5% chance of death among the pilot age group

How many pilots are there in Canada? From google according to 2006 consensus....11.5k

Let's round that to 10k

So hypothetical question...

Say we got all 10k pilots into a room and said we can jump start the aviation industry tomorrow if 0.5% of you are willing to die.

0.5% of 10k is 50

Who amongst you are willing to volunteer to die?

If no one volunteers, and we draw lots... You are picked. Would you still want to go through with it?

I'm a pilot who's laid off. But I'm not willing to die so the rest of you can start flying again. Call me selfish.
I'd bet the odds of you dying on your way to work in traffic are higher yet you probably continue to drive...
If your odds of dying in a car crash were 0.5 %, or 1 in 200, you wouldn't drive - or fly.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by skybluetrek »

I wish someone came up with the numbers for,
Car crashes
Heart attacks
Diabetes
Other respiratory diseases
Etc
Etc
Etc,
all together. And then came up with a mediatized live score board for each condition/disease/risk of death. Maybe then, the idea of poverty and confiscated liberties in order to 'save lives' will have more sense.
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Hellocopter
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by Hellocopter »

skybluetrek wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:36 am I wish someone came up with the numbers for,
Car crashes
Heart attacks
Diabetes
Other respiratory diseases
Etc
Etc
Etc,
all together. And then came up with a mediatized live score board for each condition/disease/risk of death. Maybe then, the idea of poverty and confiscated liberties in order to 'save lives' will have more sense.
I don't think that matters

if x = all deaths except from covid
and y = all deaths from covid

opening the borders now will result in x + y

and the people responsible for making the decision is directly responsible for y.

if x = 100k, and y = 1

you have a very sound argument. y is so small, so insignificant, why should the rest of us suffer for 1 person?

the point I tried to make was, I completely agree.... but what if y was you?

are you willing to die for the rest of us?

At the end of the day we are all selfish individuals looking after our own interest.

I'm not willing to die for the rest of you. But in a desperate situation, I'm willing for you to die so I can go back to work.

This is our current mindset. It is a bad one but I recognize it as such.

I'm trying to get the rest of you to too.

Embrace being a selfish asshole. Stop trying to justify these deaths to protect your guilty conscience.
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porcsord
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by porcsord »

Hellocopter wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:50 am I'm not willing to die for the rest of you. But in a desperate situation, I'm willing for you to die so I can go back to work.
This.
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digits_
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by digits_ »

Hellocopter wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:50 am
skybluetrek wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:36 am I wish someone came up with the numbers for,
Car crashes
Heart attacks
Diabetes
Other respiratory diseases
Etc
Etc
Etc,
all together. And then came up with a mediatized live score board for each condition/disease/risk of death. Maybe then, the idea of poverty and confiscated liberties in order to 'save lives' will have more sense.
I don't think that matters

if x = all deaths except from covid
and y = all deaths from covid

opening the borders now will result in x + y

and the people responsible for making the decision is directly responsible for y.

if x = 100k, and y = 1

you have a very sound argument. y is so small, so insignificant, why should the rest of us suffer for 1 person?

the point I tried to make was, I completely agree.... but what if y was you?

are you willing to die for the rest of us?

At the end of the day we are all selfish individuals looking after our own interest.

I'm not willing to die for the rest of you. But in a desperate situation, I'm willing for you to die so I can go back to work.

This is our current mindset. It is a bad one but I recognize it as such.

I'm trying to get the rest of you to too.

Embrace being a selfish asshole. Stop trying to justify these deaths to protect your guilty conscience.
You could make that same reasoning for driving cars. Other people die every day yet we still drive them. Looks like we are ok as a society letting XX people day so we can all enjoy the freedom of driving.

At the moment we are not ok letting the same, or fewer, people die to enjoy unrestricted travelling and gathering in groups. Why? For how long? Not claiming this is good or bad, but it does look like a bit of a contradiction.
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Hellocopter
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by Hellocopter »

digits_ wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:52 am
You could make that same reasoning for driving cars. Other people die every day yet we still drive them. Looks like we are ok as a society letting XX people day so we can all enjoy the freedom of driving.

At the moment we are not ok letting the same, or fewer, people die to enjoy unrestricted travelling and gathering in groups. Why? For how long? Not claiming this is good or bad, but it does look like a bit of a contradiction.
I'm not trying to say whether it's the correct decision or not.

And I've made my stance clear. I'm not desperate right now, so I'm ok with the borders closed.

In 1 year, I will be desperate and I will want borders open. Even at the cost of other's ppl's lives.

Just like driving. I'm not willing to give up my freedom to drive to bring down driving death statistics.

What annoyed me was ppl arguing on the side of "good"

We make our own choices based on our own needs, it is selfish and dark. Stop trying to pretend you're arguing for the greater good.

edit: and that's all I'm trying to say. You are in a different situation than me. You may be desperate. You will want borders open. All I ask is that you recognize ppl will die because of it. As long as you don't push away that responsibility,then that's fine

In 1 year, I too will want borders open. And I too will recognize ppl will die because of what I want. Thousands of ppl die everyday anyways, what will another couple hundred be? Honestly, as long as they're not ppl I care about, I won't care that much. It is almost evil, but isn't that true for most of us?
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skybluetrek
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by skybluetrek »

Hellocopter wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:50 am
skybluetrek wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:36 am I wish someone came up with the numbers for,
Car crashes
Heart attacks
Diabetes
Other respiratory diseases
Etc
Etc
Etc,
all together. And then came up with a mediatized live score board for each condition/disease/risk of death. Maybe then, the idea of poverty and confiscated liberties in order to 'save lives' will have more sense.
I don't think that matters

if x = all deaths except from covid
and y = all deaths from covid

opening the borders now will result in x + y

and the people responsible for making the decision is directly responsible for y.

if x = 100k, and y = 1

you have a very sound argument. y is so small, so insignificant, why should the rest of us suffer for 1 person?

the point I tried to make was, I completely agree.... but what if y was you?

are you willing to die for the rest of us?

At the end of the day we are all selfish individuals looking after our own interest.

I'm not willing to die for the rest of you. But in a desperate situation, I'm willing for you to die so I can go back to work.

This is our current mindset. It is a bad one but I recognize it as such.

I'm trying to get the rest of you to too.

Embrace being a selfish asshole. Stop trying to justify these deaths to protect your guilty conscience.
The current mindset is entitlement, we're so arrogant we believe we can save the world from this pandemonium circus. What about the many more that will dye because of starvation thanks to the economical downturn, or the grandmas dying alone cause nobody visits them anymore, or the increased domestic violence, Etc, Etc, Etc. Let alone our even more fucked up immune system after all this sanitation.

It's not about the willingness to dye for you or anyone, it's about embracing death in the many forms/chances. We would have chosen a different career if contemplating and managing the risk of dying wasn't something we're willing to do.
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Hellocopter
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by Hellocopter »

skybluetrek wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 9:54 am
The current mindset is entitlement, we're so arrogant we believe we can save the world from this pandemonium circus. What about the many more that will dye because of starvation thanks to the economical downturn, or the grandmas dying alone cause nobody visits them anymore, or the increased domestic violence, Etc, Etc, Etc. Let alone our even more fucked up immune system after all this sanitation.

It's not about the willingness to dye for you or anyone, it's about embracing death in the many forms/chances. We would have chosen a different career if contemplating and managing the risk of dying wasn't something we're willing to do.
Careful there, remember human factors class? resignation is one of the 5 hazardous attitudes.

For real though, you can't expect governments around the world to not even TRY to fix the pandemic can you?

What our government did initially, imo was correct.

Hospitals were overflowing, there was too many unknowns still regrading the virus. So we shut down. That's not arrogance. It's good decision making.

The government then provided much needed support with CEWS and CERB. Who's starving?

I figured old people would prefer to not catch covid and live but be quarantined, than to see their grandkids and then die? Besides, there are work arounds. I remember reading an article about a guy visiting his grandma by standing beside a window @ the senior home.

Domestic violence? If being locked together with the person you supposedly love and married resulted in you deciding to beat them up... You surely can't pin that on covid...

If wearing a mask and washing hands a bit more resulted in the collapse of our immune system, then we as a species deserve to go extinct.



Now if you want to complain about our government regarding their decisions after June/July. Fine, many things can be said about them there.


Again, I don't care about your stance regarding the shut down. If you want to go with herd immunity and kill off millions. Go right ahead. But don't brush off their deaths as just a number.

Say it with pride.

To quote Lord Farquaad from Shrek.

Some of you may die, and that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.

As long as you take that stance, I have no issue.

Because the only thing worse than being evil. Is to be evil while masquerading as good.
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planebored
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by planebored »

The initial actions were correct.

What was not correct was the lack of an exit plan.

The curve has been flattened. The hospitals are not overwhelmed.

It's time to roll out back to as normal as we can be while still being careful and courteous for those who are at a health disadvantage.

We can't keep everything closed on this planet for the smallest fraction of a percent of people who may die from covid. It's just not realistic.
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planebored
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by planebored »

Hellocopter wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:20 am


Again, I don't care about your stance regarding the shut down. If you want to go with herd immunity and kill off millions. Go right ahead. But don't brush off their deaths as just a number.

This has more or less been debunked with what was the experiment done in Sweden. Nothing closed, minor distancing and their bell curve looks the same if not better than many countries who shut down.

One could wonder if perhaps that's because they have a health care system that works.

I refuse to use the USA as any sort of metric for this virus. Half the country is uninsured and underemployed. They can't afford to go to the hospital, and they can't afford to take days off from work. It is a disaster waiting to happen, and not a realistic example of the rest of the planet.
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Hellocopter
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by Hellocopter »

planebored wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:15 am
This has more or less been debunked with what was the experiment done in Sweden. Nothing closed, minor distancing and their bell curve looks the same if not better than many countries who shut down.

One could wonder if perhaps that's because they have a health care system that works.

I refuse to use the USA as any sort of metric for this virus. Half the country is uninsured and underemployed. They can't afford to go to the hospital, and they can't afford to take days off from work. It is a disaster waiting to happen, and not a realistic example of the rest of the planet.
Sorry for the exaggeration in numbers, but from my previous posts, the number doesn't matter.

If we do decide to open up. I am all for it since I stand to benefit.

And whether 10k ppl die, or 1 person dies because of it...

All I'm asking is for all of us to recognize that we pushed them to their deaths.

Now I'm not saying we pay the victims reparations or anything like that. Once things open up, and we get the total # of deaths due to opening up. I won't shed tears over them, but I will admit that what we did was completely self serving @ the expense of others. Give these people recognition for their forced sacrifice.
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skybluetrek
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by skybluetrek »

Hellocopter wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:37 pm
planebored wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:15 am
This has more or less been debunked with what was the experiment done in Sweden. Nothing closed, minor distancing and their bell curve looks the same if not better than many countries who shut down.

One could wonder if perhaps that's because they have a health care system that works.

I refuse to use the USA as any sort of metric for this virus. Half the country is uninsured and underemployed. They can't afford to go to the hospital, and they can't afford to take days off from work. It is a disaster waiting to happen, and not a realistic example of the rest of the planet.
Sorry for the exaggeration in numbers, but from my previous posts, the number doesn't matter.

If we do decide to open up. I am all for it since I stand to benefit.

And whether 10k ppl die, or 1 person dies because of it...

All I'm asking is for all of us to recognize that we pushed them to their deaths.

Now I'm not saying we pay the victims reparations or anything like that. Once things open up, and we get the total # of deaths due to opening up. I won't shed tears over them, but I will admit that what we did was completely self serving @ the expense of others. Give these people recognition for their forced sacrifice.
As self serving at the expense of others as when you turn on your car and contribute to the deaths of many due to climate change , or when you buy some stupid shit made half way across the world in a toxic factory by some under paid person, or when you buy those porkchops you like so much and contribute to the contamination of the creek adjacent to the pig farm from where then a kid drinks water and develops cancer... It's endless. I get it, some people will dye, that was going to be the case anyhow. I guess to some extent we push a lot of people to their deaths on a daily basis? Aren't the broad consequences of a lockdown also pushing a lot of people to their deaths?

It's time to stop enforcing more restrictions, that's not the kind of democracy I want to live in.
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by Hellocopter »

skybluetrek wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:51 pm
As self serving at the expense of others as when you turn on your car and contribute to the deaths of many due to climate change , or when you buy some stupid shit made half way across the world in a toxic factory by some under paid person, or when you buy those porkchops you like so much and contribute to the contamination of the creek adjacent to the pig farm from where then a kid drinks water and develops cancer... It's endless. I get it, some people will dye, that was going to be the case anyhow. I guess to some extent we push a lot of people to their deaths on a daily basis? Aren't the broad consequences of a lockdown also pushing a lot of people to their deaths?

It's time to stop enforcing more restrictions, that's not the kind of democracy I want to live in.
I usually just lurk these forums, and the only reason I'm posting now is because of the nasty taste in my mouth after the last few weeks of reading so many posts about how ridiculous it is to continue to lock down over such a few deaths...

In another thread, a poster referred it to just a "small cut"

Now, I get it. We are all frustrated, and they are just trying to minimize the impact of deaths in order to help elevate their argument.

The problem is, you're all preaching to the choir. We all want to go back to work.

But when you trivialize deaths in order to help fuel your argument, on the surface of it.... it doesn't seem that bad....until u start to think about it

Luckily, no one I love has died from covid, but if I did, I would build up a really bad impression of all pilots after browsing these forums.

It almost feels like the equivalent of a bunch of pilots protesting @ a funeral of someone that died from covid.

I'm not saying to change your views on opening up. Since I too want borders to open up. But let's be a little more tactful?
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by FL320 »

Hellocopter wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:49 am
skybluetrek wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:51 pm
As self serving at the expense of others as when you turn on your car and contribute to the deaths of many due to climate change , or when you buy some stupid shit made half way across the world in a toxic factory by some under paid person, or when you buy those porkchops you like so much and contribute to the contamination of the creek adjacent to the pig farm from where then a kid drinks water and develops cancer... It's endless. I get it, some people will dye, that was going to be the case anyhow. I guess to some extent we push a lot of people to their deaths on a daily basis? Aren't the broad consequences of a lockdown also pushing a lot of people to their deaths?

It's time to stop enforcing more restrictions, that's not the kind of democracy I want to live in.
I usually just lurk these forums, and the only reason I'm posting now is because of the nasty taste in my mouth after the last few weeks of reading so many posts about how ridiculous it is to continue to lock down over such a few deaths...

In another thread, a poster referred it to just a "small cut"

Now, I get it. We are all frustrated, and they are just trying to minimize the impact of deaths in order to help elevate their argument.

The problem is, you're all preaching to the choir. We all want to go back to work.

But when you trivialize deaths in order to help fuel your argument, on the surface of it.... it doesn't seem that bad....until u start to think about it

Luckily, no one I love has died from covid, but if I did, I would build up a really bad impression of all pilots after browsing these forums.

It almost feels like the equivalent of a bunch of pilots protesting @ a funeral of someone that died from covid.

I'm not saying to change your views on opening up. Since I too want borders to open up. But let's be a little more tactful?
But I know a pilot who died because of the psychological collateral effect of the covid; of course we don’t talk about it..
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doiwannabeapilot
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

Fear monger much ?

over the last 5 years,

per year in Canada

12000 accidental deaths (car accidents & other)
80000 cancer
5000 due to breast cancer alone
6000 - 8000 flu
4000 suicides

*** i guarantee 95 % of the population doesn't know those #s.....i didn't. ***



in 2019 so far:
about 9000 due to covid
approx 8000 of those in the 80+ category !!! WHY IS THAT NOT REEMPHASIZED DAILY ?

The media should report this year #'s in the former categories DAILY.

how many suicides this year ???
not gonna be 4000. a lil higher. 1.5x 2x 3x ?

how many new alcoholics, drug addicts this year ?

A lot of math..........that's what this is all about right......the math, the statistics, curve etc.
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mbav8r
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by mbav8r »

doiwannabeapilot wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 5:05 pm Fear monger much ?

over the last 5 years,

per year in Canada

12000 accidental deaths (car accidents & other)
80000 cancer
5000 due to breast cancer alone
6000 - 8000 flu
4000 suicides

*** i guarantee 95 % of the population doesn't know those #s.....i didn't. ***



in 2019 so far:
about 9000 due to covid
approx 8000 of those in the 80+ category !!! WHY IS THAT NOT REEMPHASIZED DAILY ?

The media should report this year #'s in the former categories DAILY.

how many suicides this year ???
not gonna be 4000. a lil higher. 1.5x 2x 3x ?

how many new alcoholics, drug addicts this year ?

A lot of math..........that's what this is all about right......the math, the statistics, curve etc.
Oh for @#$! sakes, all those deaths are still going to happen, what you left out is that the corona related deaths are what happened WITH strong measures, and the US is what happens with no real measures in place.
I’m not a fan, in fact I am hoping for an election this fall, to hopefully rid ourselfs of this friggen idiot but I think any government would have done what was done, it’s why no other party fought against the measures, only the little hidden agenda fuckface tried to insert.
The countries that essentially did nothing or were in some type of denial all have very similar deaths per million, which says a lot about this virus.
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by doiwannabeapilot »

I am just saying that statistically that the math does not lie; that this may be slightly overblown.
I certainly don't want to get it nor my parents or anyone i know. It's a terrible virus.

Another viewpoint would be:
you're right it's a terrible virus to get. So let's go back to a full shutdown; until we have the case load in double digits daily nationally.
Let's close all aviation until we hit those numbers. Why not. Let's do it.

I never said no measures or denial.
At least I agree with you wholeheartedly on the idiot. Absolutely. 100%
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dhc#
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by dhc# »

Porter Airlines extends service restart to Dec. 15

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/p ... 09625.html
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by rudder »

dhc# wrote: Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:54 am Porter Airlines extends service restart to Dec. 15

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/p ... 09625.html
Dec 15 ............... 2021. :-)
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Re: Porter Airlines shifts restart of flights date to June 29

Post by altiplano »

Porter has to get something going, or they aren't coming back at all... or at least the public left that remember them are going to lose what little faith they may have left.

I imagine forward bookings are nil at this point.

I certainly wouldn't be planning my Christmas flight home to wherever from Toronto with any faith that it will run at this point.
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