Potential Strike Topic?

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derateNO
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by derateNO »

rudder wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:04 am
A SKY pilot that moves to Jazz with an ATPL will be able to hold CA immediately, and would leapfrog hundreds of Jazz pilots in the flow deal that either do not have 2000 hours, do not have an ATPL, or both. However, I am guessing that AC will not be thrilled by an exodus from SKY to Jazz. Nor is SKY equipped to deal with the rate of attrition and retraining that Jazz is capable of accommodating. Hence, all that AC can do is order Jazz not to hire from SKY (not sure that would stand up in front of the CIRB).

I wish the SKY pilots luck at the bargaining table but the chances that they will end up with Jazz WAWCON is zero. And as for flow, Jazz has 60% and AC has made it clear that experienced OTS are critical to the operation so not sure what might be available there for SKY pilots (10%)? And what price would the SKY pilots have to pay for that 10%?

Continuing to run multiple Express airlines makes no sense. It requires extra AC resources. It creates redundancies at the Express level. It has already achieved the objective of lowering CPA costs and removing labour strife risk (Jazz).

From a pilot perspective it leaves the SKY pilots out on their own with no bargaining leverage as their entire operation could be replaced over time using Jazz/AC assets.

Status quo serves no one other than SKY management. It ensures that they have a job. But the tea leaves of the future are a smaller Express network with fewer airframes. Waiting until 2025 to consolidate (or eliminate) the Express players seems a pointless outcome. Eventually either SKY or Jazz or both are going to pick up the phone and say that they cannot staff 100% of their assigned flying.

Better that AC gets out front of this rather than deferring the inevitable. And better that the most affected constituents (the pilots) coalesce behind the best long term outcome.
Agreed on all accounts.
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derateNO
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by derateNO »

rxl wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 2:05 pm
It’s interesting to note that in the first annual review of the process, it was discovered that there is a deficit of 22 pilots in the number of new hires from Jazz by Air Canada to meet their commitment of taking 60% of all new hires from Jazz.
The expectation is that this deficit will be made up as soon as possible, there by removing 22 AC new hire positions from availability to “off the street” pilots over the short term.
The Jazz/Air Canada hiring arrangement is solid, being monitored and will be enforced. For those so motivated, there is no better route to a mainline job right now than through Jazz.
I think I misunderstand you here. Are you saying that AC is short 22 pilots from Jazz based on the 60% number? And that they will be taking 22 positions that would have gone OTS and funneling them to Jazz?

This is only just the beginning, things are going to get messy at Jazz. They can't keep planes in the air already, have DEC and ON TOP of that AC hasn't even hired the amount they are supposed to?

Crazy times ahead.

And yes, the agreement will be enforced. It is written into the CPA agreement, not just the Collective Agreement so it is fully enforceable from a legal standpoint.
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rxl
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

No, I think you understood my gobbledegook exactly as I intended.
The hiring numbers over the last year by AC from Jazz were exactly 22 pilots hired SHORT of the number required to meet their 60% quota for the year just ended and this shortfall is to be reconciled as soon as possible.
In other words AC will have to hire from Jazz the promised 60% quota for 2020 PLUS the 22 that were missed from 2019's quota. Doen't that mean that out of the total planned hiring number for 2020, (a relatively large but finite number) there will be 22 fewer spots available to OTS?
I only post this because all Express pilots should have equal access to mainline jobs and/or the best wawcon that's available at Express. We're all in this together.
And yes, crazy times indeed.
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by Inverted2 »

Is Jazz providing better pilots now? A few years ago the acceptance rate to AC was in the ~60 to 70% rate from Jazz and now all the sudden it became 90%. Somewhat of a kick to all the pilots in the past who were “PFO’d” due to numbers games.
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derateNO
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by derateNO »

Inverted2 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:18 pm
Is Jazz providing better pilots now? A few years ago the acceptance rate to AC was in the ~60 to 70% rate from Jazz and now all the sudden it became 90%. Somewhat of a kick to all the pilots in the past who were “PFO’d” due to numbers games.
What a kick to all the pilots who couldn't find a job from 2001-2010! It's not fair that the industry is moving so quickly now! I want everyone to suffer like I did!
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by Inverted2 »

Were you even working as a pilot before 2010?
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rxl
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

Inverted2 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:30 pm
Were you even working as a pilot before 2010?
Since 1978 actually. Why do you ask?
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by Inverted2 »

rxl wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:41 pm
Inverted2 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:30 pm
Were you even working as a pilot before 2010?
Since 1978 actually. Why do you ask?
I was asking derate No
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speedah
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by speedah »

Inverted2 wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:18 pm
Is Jazz providing better pilots now? A few years ago the acceptance rate to AC was in the ~60 to 70% rate from Jazz and now all the sudden it became 90%. Somewhat of a kick to all the pilots in the past who were “PFO’d” due to numbers games.
I don’t think “better pilots” are being fed to AC from Jazz anymore; not with this agreement. You could be beyond stupid and you’ll end up at AC if you went to Jazz, the 90% thing pushes people through.

It’s a gigantic double edge sword... the flow is good for career progression, but AC in my opinion has lost control of the quality of pilots they can hire now.

Jazz could hire pilots AC would never hire in a million years: but since Jazz is short pilots they’ll take what they can, and those guys will end up at AC...

AC has already noticed the number of additional training sessions has increased from Jazz pilots. Some 2000-3000 hour pilots with Turboprop time are cut out to fly at mainline with that experience level, but not 90% of them.

Personally I think it’s going to bite both companies in the ass one way or another...
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

Such is the state of the industry in 2020.
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speedah
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by speedah »

rxl wrote:
Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:48 pm
Such is the state of the industry in 2020.
It’s going to be awkward if they have to explain to a tribunal they hired a pilot with a terrible training record because “they had to meet a quota”
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

As much as an agreement is an agreement and a quota is a quota, no hiring board would intentionally or knowingly put themselves in that position. Maybe that''s another advantage for Air Canada to hire (or not) from Jazz ... reliable and potentially quite extensive training records WILL be readily available. A lot of the weeding out process will have already been done.

I’m going edit my post to add that if anyone thinks that Air Canada or Jazz flight operations management will let this, to quote from above, “You could be beyond stupid and you’ll end up at AC if you went to Jazz, the 90% thing pushes people through.” happen, hiring quota or not, then they are sorely mistaken. Hiring standards have not and will not change just to meet a quota.
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Last edited by rxl on Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:03 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by mbav8r »

Not to mention, hire does not mean keep, if you don’t cut it, they can cut you.
There have been pilots not make it through the initial training, no training pilot is going to push someone through that’s not up to standard.
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

... and then there’s line indoc and probation.
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rudder
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rudder »

Perhaps AC should be doing the interview/medical/background check for Jazz new-hires.

Perhaps a job offer from Jazz should become a de facto (but conditional) job offer for AC.

The US carriers have figured this all out. Why is it so complicated and confusing at Jazz/AC?
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derateNO
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by derateNO »

It was pretty clear in the flow agreement that you still have to be qualified. And right now that means 2000 hours and an ATPL. If AC has taken 90% of everyone with those requirements who actually wants to come, they have met their obligation even if it's below 60%.

It's also very easy for them to change the OTS requirements to 3000 hours and 500 hours 705 CA time for example and now all the Jazz candidates must meet the same requirements. If there are none left, they can go all OTS with no consequences if there's no one that meets the requirements.

The only stipulation that really matters is the OTS requirements can not be less than the Jazz requirements.
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

rudder wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:48 am
Perhaps AC should be doing the interview/medical/background check for Jazz new-hires.

Perhaps a job offer from Jazz should become a de facto (but conditional) job offer for AC.

The US carriers have figured this all out. Why is it so complicated and confusing at Jazz/AC?
Makes perfect sense. Do we really need to interview, test, do medical exams and background checks X2?? Seems like a waste of time and resources. More than one way to skin this particular cat and also to deal with any hiring deficits.
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by mbav8r »

derateNO wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:08 pm
It was pretty clear in the flow agreement that you still have to be qualified. And right now that means 2000 hours and an ATPL. If AC has taken 90% of everyone with those requirements who actually wants to come, they have met their obligation even if it's below 60%.

It's also very easy for them to change the OTS requirements to 3000 hours and 500 hours 705 CA time for example and now all the Jazz candidates must meet the same requirements. If there are none left, they can go all OTS with no consequences if there's no one that meets the requirements.

The only stipulation that really matters is the OTS requirements can not be less than the Jazz requirements.
As for the 22 pilot deficit, it was based on qualified candidates who applied. The rest is correct but would be seen as another time when AC pulled the bait and switch.
Fool me twice, shame on me!
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by GATRKGA »

rudder wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:48 am
Perhaps AC should be doing the interview/medical/background check for Jazz new-hires.

Perhaps a job offer from Jazz should become a de facto (but conditional) job offer for AC.

The US carriers have figured this all out. Why is it so complicated and confusing at Jazz/AC?
Ask your ACPA rep why that's a problem. :smt040
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rxl »

GATRKGA wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:58 pm
rudder wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:48 am
Perhaps AC should be doing the interview/medical/background check for Jazz new-hires.

Perhaps a job offer from Jazz should become a de facto (but conditional) job offer for AC.

The US carriers have figured this all out. Why is it so complicated and confusing at Jazz/AC?
Ask your ACPA rep why that's a problem. :smt040
ACPA guarantees seniority numbers to the 60% of new hires that come from Jazz now.
Wouldn't this give them even more control over the process?
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rudder
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by rudder »

GATRKGA wrote:
Sun Feb 23, 2020 10:58 pm
rudder wrote:
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:48 am
Perhaps AC should be doing the interview/medical/background check for Jazz new-hires.

Perhaps a job offer from Jazz should become a de facto (but conditional) job offer for AC.

The US carriers have figured this all out. Why is it so complicated and confusing at Jazz/AC?
Ask your ACPA rep why that's a problem. :smt040
There have been a couple of historical instances where the AC pilots allowed for reserved numbers for regional pilots that had been offered mainline PIT courses. Once during the mid to late 1990’s and then again with PML 1.0 in 2015.

If Express falters then it affects the broader commercial plan. Look at the impact that the GGN operation had on the brand and operational performance, and the GGN operation was a small fraction of the Express flight inventory. AC has a vested interest. Perhaps that can be bundled in with the long list of wants that ACPA has.

Nothing will happen overnight but the reality is that neither progression at Express nor progression at mainline are optimized. It is even questionable whether status quo is sustainable. Looking at the restricted course rights system at mainline along with the 4 year flat pay would be appropriate if considering a more orderly migration system of pilots from Express to mainline that increases relevant experience levels at both carriers.

Giving reserved seniority numbers/course deferral rights to Express pilots would allow AC to hire a higher proportion of more experienced OTS pilots during a time frame when that is extremely relevant.
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GATRKGA
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by GATRKGA »

Exactly!

AC could hinder a lot of issues here if they just streamlined their express -> ac process. Makes me wonder why this hasn't been done already. What is the cog in the wheel holding it up?

Is there actually any valid reason why a guy with good training record, good attitude, great skills, and 1000 hours in the AC system with AC dispatch, stoc, fplans, passengers as a commander isn't a good fit as an FO, and heck even a DEC at AC the way these bids are going? I am actually curious.
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derateNO
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by derateNO »

Ask ACPA.
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flyer 1492
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by flyer 1492 »

Just so everyone is clear.

As long as you spend 2 years at Jazz, have 2000 hours, have an ATPL you can apply to be interviewed at Air Canada. Air Canada will interview 90% of the pilots and 60% will be offered a position.
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Re: Potential Strike Topic?

Post by Dash.Trash »

flyer 1492 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:45 pm
Just so everyone is clear.

As long as you spend 2 years at Jazz, have 2000 hours, have an ATPL you can apply to be interviewed at Air Canada. Air Canada will interview 90% of the pilots and 60% will be offered a position.
Not quite.

60% of new hires each year at AC are supposed to come from Jazz. Of all the Jazz candidates who interview, 90% are to be offered a job (10% PFO rate).
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