How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

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kinouille
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#26 Post by kinouille » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:05 am

pacman007 wrote:
Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:57 am
Well my guess is that all the encore pilots will keep there YOS and get the pay that goes along with it.
Hi Pacman,
I don't know where you got the info that Encore pilots get YOS but it is wrong. The only thing Encore pilots have (for now) is the one list. Which only means that when they'll move to mainline (or Swoop), they will keep their DOH seniority. As of now, if an Encore pilot go to mainline, he/she will start at the year 1 pay rate and start from there.
Everything from the WJ/Swoop and Encore contract is under negotiations and very little have been revealed (for obvious reason). Anything coming out in forums are only rumors (often false).

I hope that will clarify a few things.
Cheers
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180
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#27 Post by 180 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:07 am

He said “my guess is”, he isn’t claiming anything Kinnouille, he’s just speculating.

Hopefully it won’t be long before everyone knows the final score.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#28 Post by co-joe » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:37 pm

jjj wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:01 pm
short bus wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:19 am
Well, at least we know what happened to 748HO.
Good one! Was trying to remember that handle.

Missed you 748.

JJJ
Ha Ha Ha ha Ha!
:lol: Sort of miss him, welcome back man.
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CAL
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#29 Post by CAL » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:01 pm

far removed from this but curious all the same....
why wouldnt the company just agree and setup 1 list from the start?
doesnt that make the most sense anyway?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#30 Post by FL007 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:26 pm

CAL wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:01 pm
far removed from this but curious all the same....
why wouldnt the company just agree and setup 1 list from the start?
doesnt that make the most sense anyway?
Before when it wasn't unionized the company could make under the table deals and hire anyone for any position for any reason, the one list is just a carrot.

Unless you're in a unionized environment where there are repercussions to hiring for a position where there are already qualified people internally apply, however because you don't want to train their replacement you hire outside.

A one list doesn't make the most sense for the company if there is so much flow that WJ can't take all the pilots from encore (they agreed to close to 100% intake, which wasn't the case) because there wasn't enough experience or qualified people to fly for encore. It makes sense as a carrot to entice qualified people to come to encore, but without a union it wasn't enforced, so they were hiring OTS hires for WJ positions, etc.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#31 Post by Rezy » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:44 pm

CAL wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:01 pm
far removed from this but curious all the same....
why wouldnt the company just agree and setup 1 list from the start?
doesnt that make the most sense anyway?
The one list was negotiated under the WJPA when the attempt was to make all pilots the same. WestJet Pilots flying Encore airplanes was what the WJPA was hoping to achieve - they did not. So the compromise was “one list” but separate companies. The scope for WestJet pilots was a LOU that stated if any layoffs occurred at WestJet they would bump Encore pilots off the list, so that way they were protected.
The financial burden of pure one list and all new hires going into encore would be hefty when retirements start to kick in from a training perspective.
The percentage of flow has always been predicated on Encores ability to operate while flowing to WestJet. This is about to become extremely difficult with such low experience coming into Encore, which I don’t believe anyone predicted as coming this soon 3-4 years ago.
Now that both Encore and WestJet are in negotiations it remains to be seen what the one list will look like once all negotiations are complete.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#32 Post by mmm..bacon » Mon Sep 24, 2018 7:27 pm

Rezy wrote:
Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:44 pm
flowing to WestJet. This is about to become extremely difficult with such low experience coming into Encore, which I don’t believe anyone predicted as coming this soon 3-4 years ago.
Well if they paid more, then perhaps more people might be pried loose from better-paying 703/4 jobs and raise the experience level a little...
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#33 Post by CAL » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:52 am

what a mess you guys have got yourselves into.......
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#34 Post by sstaurus » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:53 am

I think they would rather park a quarter of the planes before that happens.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#35 Post by Mooseontheloose » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:31 am

HEEEYYYYY FELLAS!!! HOWS LIFE PICKING UP TRASH ON THE DASH?!?!

JUST WANTED TO STOP BY AND SAY THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HARD WORK!!! I HEAR THIS YEAR'S PROFIT SHARE IS GONNA BE A BIG ONE!! BLOW THE ROOF OFF!!! MAKE PICKING UP ALL THAT WHET KLEENEX SEEM LIKE A REAL GOOD IDEA!!!

HEYAAAA!!

I CAUGHT WIND OF THAT NEW WJA RESERVE SYSTEM!!! YOU MUST BE SO EXCITED!!!! 18 DAYS A MONTH IN YYZ!!!!! +++PLUS+++ A PAYCUT!!! NO CHANCE FOR OVERTIME!!! $1500 EVERY TWO WEEKS!!! WELCOME TO THE BIG SHOW!!! AREN'T YOU GLAD YOU WORKED YOUR ASS OFF ALL THOSE YEARS!!!! SURE HOPE YOU SAVED YOUR OPA CHECKS AND PICKED UP ENOUGH POCKET CHANGE BETWEEN THE SEATS SO YOU CAN SHELL OUT FOR THAT FANCY CRASH PAD!!! YEAAAAAAA!!! NOTHING SAYS "I'M A JET PILOT" LIKE HOT BUNKING IN SOME DUMP!!!

WHEELS ABOUT TO FALL OFF AT ENCORE! UNCLE EDDIE HAS TO TURN THE FLOW DOWN!!! WHAT A PARTY POOPER! SO MANY FELLAS "JUST ABOUT TO FLOW" HAHAHA!!! GONNA TAKE ENCORE PILOTS YEAAAAAAAARS TO REACH VALHALLA!!! IN THE MEAN TIME THEY'RE HIRING NAVAJO COJOES TO FILL YOUR JET SEATS!!!! HOW ABOUT THEM SWOOP PILOTS?!!!! THEY STILL AROUND PLUGGING UP THE SYSTEM LIKE A STINKY TURD?!!!! THEY ALL GET YEARS OF SERVICE FROM DAY ONE!!! FANCY THAT!!!!! WHAT DO YOU GET?! JACK SHIT!!!!! QUIT YOUR BITCHIN GET BACK THERE AND CLEAAAAAN UP!!!!!

YEAAAHHH MENN!!! JUST TELLING IT AS I SEE IT!!! ENCORE PILOTS GETTING THE SHAFT!!! YESSIR!! BUT THERE'S HOPE OUT THERE MEN!!! LOTS OF CUSHY SEATS AND SWEET DEALS FOR ANYONE MAN ENOUGH TO MAKE A MOVE!!! DON'T BE A WET SOCK!!! GET OUT THERE AND LEAVE THE RESTOF'EM BEHIND!!
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#36 Post by Kaykay » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:15 pm

Okay seriously, who other than 12 year olds actually posts in all caps?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#37 Post by FL007 » Thu Sep 27, 2018 4:35 am

Kaykay wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:15 pm
Okay seriously, who other than 12 year olds actually posts in all caps?
More of a novelty account but I find him funny, and accurate.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#38 Post by JBI » Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:11 pm

Kaykay wrote:
Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:15 pm
Okay seriously, who other than 12 year olds actually posts in all caps?
The US President
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#39 Post by Liftdump » Sat Sep 29, 2018 6:41 am

748ho is that you? Welcome back
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#40 Post by Tacoma » Sun Nov 04, 2018 12:02 pm

Sounds like the one list is alive and well. Westjet and Encore MECs agreed on the original intent of the one list and are presenting it to the company as an LOU which will then go to a vote at each pilot group before it is implemented.

And some good news for WeedPro: “This document has been legally reviewed and meets the requirements set forth under the ALPA Constitution and Canadian labour law.”

This is great news for all pilots at WestJet and Encore and guarantees an additional 600+ Pilots who have worked through Encore hired before April 2018 will upgrade on the 737 ahead of those hired after April 2018. :D
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#41 Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 9:48 am

Hi Tacoma,

I feel so very sad for you, and for others on the Q who believe that ALPA has this problem licked. If you take your thinking just a little bit further, you will see that the one list is a stale document that won't be updated past the last update in August. Once the statutory freeze is over (when the CBA is handed down by the Kaplan chap), the WPDL will be officially dead and buried, and the only terms of employment that will exist for the mainline pilots will be the CBA.

What I think ALPA would like you to believe, is that the company will just accept the LOU and sign it. Why would they do that? Both pilot groups have decided they want ALPA, so the company is under no moral obligation to defend the one list. Zero. Hiring and pilot retention is the company's concern, not ALPA's. Don't you worry, the company has a plan for dealing with Q pilots and it doesn't involve the headaches of a combined list. If ALPA want's a combined seniority list, they should concentrate their efforts at the CIRB with a common employer ruling, because with the way that ALPA has sabotaged the relationship between upper management and themselves, there is ZERO goodwill from which to draw on. The company would rather see ALPA suffer for its behaviour than sign that LOU.

I hear the CPA (Link) is working out great...think about that. What would it take to sell the Q operation?

Regarding the legality of the proposed LOU, I made some inquiries. I wouldn't be so sure that it passes muster. As WeedPro has pointed out, ALPA and the MEC are constitutionally obligated to follow the policies of the Executive Board. Again, as WeedPro pointed out, the seniority list has to be ordered by DOH, which ALPA has finally conceded and why ALPA now needs an LOU to get back what is now lost. The WestJet Pilot Seniority List that Kaplan ordered Swoop pilots added to, does not have any current Q pilots on it...
ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg
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What the proposed LOU says is ALPA will try to override seniority. In effect, they will try to bring in super-seniority for pilots who flowed from the Q. That will be interesting, as the same 1956 Executive Board policy that dictated DOH for the seniority list construction, also dictates that seniority (not super-seniority) will govern all promotions etc (see attachment, Seniority- General, (c)). Although the proposed LOU will never see the light of day due to the company's refusal to even look at it, if it did, the OTS pilots would have an instant breach of contract action against ALPA. The remedy for a sucessful breach action would include restoring pilots to the position they would have been in absent the breach by ALPA. The company is fully aware of ALPA policies and what would happen if they had to retrain and demote people etc in the event of a challenge. They won't be touching a seniority list or upgrade list that is based on something other than DOH at mainline.
ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg
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And remember, the company will shortly begin the long process of negotiating a CBA with the Q pilots. Why would they hand over a gift now? They would be better extracting something in return. Same with the mainline pilots. If the mainline pilots are so hot and horny to have the one list, the company will extract a pound or two of flesh in return. What are the mainline pilots willing to give up in order to give Q pilots credit for time served at another company?

One last reason that the company will not entertain closer ties between the Q pilots and mainline pilots by way of an LOU, is that it brings the company one step closer to a successful common employer action, which ALPA has admitted is their goal. Ain't gonna happen

ALPA knows all of the above to be true. The document they issued a few days ago regarding the one list was merely designed to deflect the anger that will occur when the former and existing Q pilots realize that the emperor is not wearing any clothes, there is no WPDL, and all current and former Q pilots will take their place on a mainline seniority list according to the day they started employment. At mainline.

I take no pleasure in informing you that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny are fictional characters, along with any concept that a one list has a life beyond Kaplan's decision on the CBA. Contact your LEC reps for more details.

My condolences.
ALPA_1956_Seniority_Policy.jpg
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#42 Post by Bede » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:56 pm

WeedPro,

Give it up already. You are wrong. All of your predictions prove to be false. It seems that the only person that doesn't want one list and is out to work against it is you. Not ALPA, not WJ, but you.

Please stop working against your colleagues.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#43 Post by WeedPro2000 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:41 pm

Bede, I'm not even a member of ALPA, and I certainly can't influence management, so how could I possibly influence the results of a union/management negotiation? The poster challenged me to comment, so I did. I only speak my lived truth and since getting sober, I don't know how to operate any other way. I looked at the issue many different ways to see where the possibilities were, and I found none that allowed the WPDL to persist. Instead of attacking me, perhaps you'd like to rebut the arguments I raised. Failure to do so may result in an adverse inference.

No, my motivation isn't in seeing the WPDL be denied a second life. Rather, it is to point out who it was that hid the truth and to illuminate the path that brought WJE pilots to the bottom of the WJ Pilot Seniority List upon their starting life as new hires.

The WJ and WJE pilots complained prior to ALPA certification that they wanted black and white in choosing ALPA.

They got it.
WestJetMECWeeklyUpdate110218.pdf
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#44 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:19 pm

Keep going Weed Pro...not all pilots want the one list. I know myself and all the off the street direct hires don’t. When I was hired my hiring package was dated 2009 and no where was their mention of a combined list. After 4 + years at WestJet my class still has 14 unflowed Encore pilots ahead of us with another 170 that have trickled over ahead of us in that same time. If Encore needs a carrot for pilots to apply there make it in the form of Wages and working conditions. WestJet is still hiring off the street direct onto the jet and they will be behind 500+ Encore pilots. The list should be based on WestJet date of hire not Encore. Just my two cents from the other side of the coin.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#45 Post by fish4life » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:26 pm

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:19 pm
Keep going Weed Pro...not all pilots want the one list. I know myself and all the off the street direct hires don’t. When I was hired my hiring package was dated 2009 and no where was their mention of a combined list. After 4 + years at WestJet my class still has 14 unflowed Encore pilots ahead of us with another 170 that have trickled over ahead of us in that same time. If Encore needs a carrot for pilots to apply there make it in the form of Wages and working conditions. WestJet is still hiring off the street direct onto the jet and they will be behind 500+ Encore pilots. The list should be based on WestJet date of hire not Encore. Just my two cents from the other side of the coin.
If you were hired in 09 how does encore have any effect? Didn’t it start 2012 or something like that?
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#46 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:19 pm

I started in 2014...my welcome to WestJet briefing package was dated 2009.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#47 Post by Mr. North » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:24 am

Ex DC10 Driver wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:19 pm
Keep going Weed Pro...not all pilots want the one list. I know myself and all the off the street direct hires don’t. When I was hired my hiring package was dated 2009 and no where was their mention of a combined list. After 4 + years at WestJet my class still has 14 unflowed Encore pilots ahead of us with another 170 that have trickled over ahead of us in that same time. If Encore needs a carrot for pilots to apply there make it in the form of Wages and working conditions. WestJet is still hiring off the street direct onto the jet and they will be behind 500+ Encore pilots. The list should be based on WestJet date of hire not Encore. Just my two cents from the other side of the coin.
Well it appears the solar radiation and rarefied air of the upper flight levels is causing someone to have a rather large sense of entitlement.

Your hiring package may have been dated 2009 but if you didn't know full well the circumstances of your employment that is no ones fault but your own. But lets forget about your wilful ignorance for a moment to consider instead all the accommodations your current status provides.

As an OTS hire at WestJet you enjoyed working less days a month while your immediate peers at Encore worked 20 (and only recently 18). You enjoy a 20% ESPP while they receive 10%. You could purchase options, they could not. By 2017 your hourly pay surpassed your peers at Encore AND you do not have to endure a pay-cut as they most certainly will once they flow over. The recent addition of YOS (which to date does not recognise time served at Encore) means you have a 4 year head start just for being on the right side of the fence! That's right! Whenever your classmates flow over to take their eventual upgrades in 3-4 years, you may have to wait a course or two but you can rest easy knowing you'll be a year 8 captain while they slide in at year 4 (through no fault of their own). How awesome is that!? /s

I'd like everyone reading this to consider just how much time and money this individual has enjoyed, all from being hired directly onto WestJet as opposed to being diverted to Encore. The difference is in hundreds of thousands of dollars and many more months spent at home. That's not enough however, he'd like everyone to know he's entitled to the upgrade before anyone else!! How dare those filthy Encore pilots (who were hired at the same time and under a pre-existing agreement) lay claim to his coveted left seat!!! Oh! The hardships this individual has had to endure!! May we all lament the headwinds buffeting his career!!

May I remind you that WestJet and Encore pilots are on the same team! The piloting profession will not advance by throwing your immediate peers under the bus!! Attitudes such as these pose a significant risk to our profession and one has to look no further than the sad history of regional aviation in Canada to witness it's effects. I take comfort in knowing your opinion is that of a small minority and getting smaller by the day. You would do well to consider how good you have it when so many others within the organisation are getting the shaft.
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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#48 Post by Mr. North » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:24 am

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#49 Post by Mr. North » Tue Nov 06, 2018 1:25 am

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Re: How's morale with uncertainty of the one list?

#50 Post by Ex DC10 Driver » Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:55 am

As I stated...the carrot should not be the one list but improved wages and working conditions at Encore.
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