Updates on one - list.

Discuss topics relating to Encore.

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Updates on one - list.

Post by .80@410 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:17 am

Don’t lose hope yet Boys n Girls.

3rd party phone polling starting up soon for the mainline pilots to see what went wrong. I don’t think ALPA would be spending the money on the 3rd party calls if it was all just for show. Keep positive . 👍



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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by tbayav8er » Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:12 am

Yep, I'm still trying to stay positive and hoping for the best here.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by pacman007 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:06 am

Is this the company’s fault or ALPAs? Wasn’t it westjet that didn’t want a true one list because of training costs in the event of lay-offs?Or was it ALPA that gave it up? My guess is that a true one list that the pilots want the company will resist so what does westjet do now?
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by JBI » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:12 pm

pacman007 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:06 am
Is this the company’s fault or ALPAs? Wasn’t it westjet that didn’t want a true one list because of training costs in the event of lay-offs?Or was it ALPA that gave it up? My guess is that a true one list that the pilots want the company will resist so what does westjet do now?
Like a TSB accident report, there are many different causes and factors that lead to this situation. Arguing about blame at this point isn't helpful to the discussion moving forward.

Moving forward, the company is indicated they are still willing to negotiate, though have recently taken a neutral stance on what they hope the pilots do. It's up to the mainline pilots to answer the polling questions, the respective pilot groups' MECs to work together to come up with a solution that may work with both pilot groups and then negotiate with the company. If an agreement can be reached it will then need to be voted on by the respective pilot groups.

So, you can guess all you want, but the reality is that things are moving along and substantive discussion won't be forthcoming in the near future on AvCanada. But, I mean it is the internet, maybe it's Georgian's fault? :lol: :roll:
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by pacman007 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:23 pm

You are right JBI.. but things have changed and managements boss has changed... ONEX will for sure have
Some input now and there is no way they would
Want to integrate encore with WestJet. Why you ask..... well because Encore is a asset that can be sold at some point. So keeping it separate now makes more sense than ever... but we shall see what your union and current management can come up with.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Stratopaused » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:07 pm

pacman007 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:23 pm
You are right JBI.. but things have changed and managements boss has changed... ONEX will for sure have
Some input now and there is no way they would
Want to integrate encore with WestJet. Why you ask..... well because Encore is a asset that can be sold at some point. So keeping it separate now makes more sense than ever... but we shall see what your union and current management can come up with.
First, I disagree with your interpretation that Onex wants to sell off assets; I don't think they're paying a 67% premium to then shave off bits here and there to make back a few bucks, I think they see value in the entity as a whole. One doesn't typically buy a car for 2/3 more than it's worth just to sell the tires.
Second, an airline without pilots isn't worth anything. Encore's greatest recruiting tool has always been the One List, because without it we're the lowest-paid regional captains in Canada with some of the most gruelling schedules. Very few people are going to come here over Jazz or SkyRegional, or just hold out for WestJet, with the current WAWCON. If the One List fails, management is going to have to dole out some massive improvements in pay and lifestyle at Encore just to maintain current staffing levels, let alone increase them for the new contract and flight-and-duty regs, and it will likely cost millions more. Current Encore pilots will look for any way out that they can, and no one will be coming in to replace them. As I've said before, WestJet can't maintain its current capacity, and certainly not expand anymore, without connecting passengers; you can't fill a 787 from YYC to DUB every day without people coming from YXJ, YMM, and YKA. Without Encore being able to keep up, regardless of whether it's sold off, WestJet will shrink back to pre-2013 size and have to operate point-to-point service within North America.
Let's say there are an average of 45 Encore aircraft operating on any given day, doing, say, ten flights each with an average load factor of 80%, which is probably quite a low estimate. That's still 28000 passengers carried every day. The average number of seats on a WestJet 737 works out to about 145, so Encore carries the equivalent of 193 WestJet flights every day. If half of Encore's passengers connect on to other flights, that's 14000 passengers, or more than 96 WestJet flights filled with just connecting guests. Do you really think WestJet can grow anymore without Encore pumping tens of thousands of people onto WestJet aircraft? People really tend to underestimate the importance of regional traffic, but the airline's entire growth strategy depends on smooth operations at Encore, and that won't happen without sufficient staffing levels. It's in everyone's best interest, including management's and mainline pilots, to ensure that Encore can continue recruiting, and the best way to do that is to maintain the One List.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by fish4life » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:28 pm

What is the wages at encore vs jazz now that they have both signed contracts? Is it close now?
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by pacman007 » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:25 pm

What i meant by sold off is that westjet will sell it to some other company who will in turn have a CPA with westjet. Similar to The Link(pacific costal)agreement, or the jazz AC agreement. This will take the headache of Encore off WestJet’s plate so they can actually focus on 787 growth and not recruiting pilots for encore. That will now be someone else problem. Westjet will still get the feed off encore and surely a flow through agreement with the pilots all after getting a 100/200 mill cheque from someone! Just my thoughts
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Stratopaused » Wed Jun 26, 2019 8:40 am

pacman007 wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:25 pm
What i meant by sold off is that westjet will sell it to some other company who will in turn have a CPA with westjet. Similar to The Link(pacific costal)agreement, or the jazz AC agreement. This will take the headache of Encore off WestJet’s plate so they can actually focus on 787 growth and not recruiting pilots for encore. That will now be someone else problem. Westjet will still get the feed off encore and surely a flow through agreement with the pilots all after getting a 100/200 mill cheque from someone! Just my thoughts
Yeah, I get that, but I don't think the business case exists. Encore's only assets are 45 used Q400s, which aren't exactly flying off the shelves, plus a couple of leased aircraft; the company doesn't even have any real estate or corporate structure, like HR or finance, because it's so integrated with WestJet, so I think the lower end of your estimate of $100 million would be more realistic. The big problem with spinning Encore off would be that WestJet would lose control of the company and its cost structure, and if WestJet has one primary goal it's controlling costs. They would lose any say in negotiations going forward, and there would be a much higher risk of wages ballooning. I also think that if Encore is no longer part of the WestJet Group of Companies, the pilots are going to feel way less certain about the continuance of flow, and certainly the One List, than they already are; the same goes for the FAs and dispatchers, although I don't think the latter have a formal flow program. In order to stem a sudden mass exodus by everyone, the company will have to throw 10-20% raises at every employee group, and there goes a big chunk of the cost advantage. The big benefit to the company of maintaining the One List is that they can keep wages lower than at competing regionals, because the pilots accept lower rates now in exchange for future gains; selling Encore puts that all in jeopardy. If the employees are no longer part of WestJet, they also aren't going to feel any obligation to continue with cost-saving initiatives such as flying slower when early or grooming. That's going to add millions more per year. Then you have to factor in that the new owners are going to want to take some profit out of the company. All-in, a new CPA would be substantially more expensive than the current one, and will end up costing far more in the long run than would be gained in an IPO.
The Jazz/AC analogy actually shows that the mother airline has a very difficult time controlling things at a regional partner that it doesn't own. The history of that relationship is one of AC struggling to avoid strikes while simultaneously fighting to keep costs down. Jazz ended up bloated and top-heavy, with pilots sitting at the top of the pay scale, and AC had to throw all sorts of goodies at them in PML 1.0 to get Jazz more cost-effective. They offered even more with the latest TA in order to create some stability and draw more pilots to AC before they get to the top of a 16-year scale. WestJet very much likes controlling every aspect of its operation, and I don't think management wants to get into a situation where they have no direct means of negotiating with the pilots at one of their airlines. On the contrary, I think we'll likely see AC buying up Chorus shares until they have a controlling interest, in order to have more direct influence at Jazz. I also think that with Encore integrated into WestJet the way it is, it's much more likely that Swoop will get spun off than Encore.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by .80@410 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:16 pm

From ALPA to mainline pilots :

This is the plan going forward: the MEC has approved the renegotiation of the transfer protocol for pilots between the WestJet Group of companies. The MEC has further decided to maintain the status quo by keeping Encore pilots' reserved positions on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List while the negotiations are ongoing.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Splash » Sat Jun 29, 2019 3:32 pm

What would happen if Onex decided to sell Encore and put it under a contractual CPA similar to how Jazz is under contract to AC? I'm wondering what the implications would be if that occurred with WS mainline and Encore pilots on one list?
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by pacman007 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:22 pm

Well Westjet MEC might have a mandate or a desire to renegotiate, but the company is different now and has new owners. Onex won’t want a integrated seniority list because it would make it harder to separate or sell off. Westjet MEC dropped the ball and this should Have been done in the first place! Now I think it’s to late.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by JBI » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:19 am

So, a few facts.

-Onex does not yet own WestJet. It will not be finalized til the winter or early next year.

-There is a strong desire on all fronts including management to continue talking about seniority transfer. How that will actually work out remains to be seen.

-Encore is already a CPA of WestJet. Just like my Mum said when I tried to convince her that my 1991 Upper Deck Baseball Card collection was an investment: "Something is only worth as much as someone else will pay for it". Not sure where you're going to find a 51% Canadian owned company or fund who wants to purchase 45 used Q400s with a very integrated management, dispatch, reservations, HR and headquarters in a tough market with increasing training costs that can somehow run it more cost efficiently than it's already being run to make money. Your example of focusing on the 787 instead of having to recruit pilots for Encore makes no sense. Not only is the Encore recruiting department run quite efficiently (and somewhat integrated with the WJ department), there are no additional interviews for Encore pilots when they flow to mainline so there isn't any obvious additional efficiencies.

- The previous LOA, and I imagine any seniority transfer agreement moving forward, had and will have cancellation clauses. The previous one would have grandfathered all the current pilots at WJ, Swoop and Encore. There are pros and cons to these types of clauses and they will be discussed/negotiated, but potential new ownership isn't necessarily going to sway things either way. I can guarantee you that Onex wants labour stability from all employee groups and no doubt management has and will have a mandate to keep the peace.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Yycjetdriver » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:58 pm

.80@410 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:16 pm
From ALPA to mainline pilots :

This is the plan going forward: the MEC has approved the renegotiation of the transfer protocol for pilots between the WestJet Group of companies. The MEC has further decided to maintain the status quo by keeping Encore pilots' reserved positions on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List while the negotiations are ongoing.
*disclaimer, I have no skin in the game and thought it should’ve been a yes vote the first time.*

With that said, I do not know of any mainline pilots who have seen this email, or any recent emails on the matter.
Secondly, how has the MEC just “decided” to reserve a position on the one list.
Why would an MEC, whose responsibility is to represent its members be able to do this without another vote. At the end of the day there was a vote among its members that resulted in a No and until that is rectified, I believe it would be a huge issue for them to go against the wishes of its members for the better of non-members.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by DropTanks » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:53 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:58 pm
.80@410 wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:16 pm
From ALPA to mainline pilots :

This is the plan going forward: the MEC has approved the renegotiation of the transfer protocol for pilots between the WestJet Group of companies. The MEC has further decided to maintain the status quo by keeping Encore pilots' reserved positions on the WestJet Pilot Seniority List while the negotiations are ongoing.
*disclaimer, I have no skin in the game and thought it should’ve been a yes vote the first time.*

With that said, I do not know of any mainline pilots who have seen this email, or any recent emails on the matter.
Secondly, how has the MEC just “decided” to reserve a position on the one list.
Why would an MEC, whose responsibility is to represent its members be able to do this without another vote. At the end of the day there was a vote among its members that resulted in a No and until that is rectified, I believe it would be a huge issue for them to go against the wishes of its members for the better of non-members.
I’ve read it. Maybe check your inbox. If you’re displeased with the MEC then make a call and let them know because that’s exactly how this course of action was initiated.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by JBI » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:34 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Why would an MEC, whose responsibility is to represent its members be able to do this without another vote. At the end of the day there was a vote among its members that resulted in a No and until that is rectified, I believe it would be a huge issue for them to go against the wishes of its members for the better of non-members.
If the MEC had done this prior to the results of the polling I would agree with you (and my understanding is that for the Encore Ground schools directly after the No vote, they held off on seniority draws in class).

However, my understanding is that the results of the recent polling was quite overwhelmingly in favour of keeping some sort of seniority transfer/one list and that for many of the No votes, they had issue with specific wording of the previous LOA or didn't understand some of the consequences enough and voted no out of caution. Therefore to me it would be that the MEC now has a mandate to keep some sort of seniority transfer/one list. Either way it'll be a little messy when things finally get sorted.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Yycjetdriver » Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:13 pm

JBI wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:34 am
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:58 pm

Why would an MEC, whose responsibility is to represent its members be able to do this without another vote. At the end of the day there was a vote among its members that resulted in a No and until that is rectified, I believe it would be a huge issue for them to go against the wishes of its members for the better of non-members.
If the MEC had done this prior to the results of the polling I would agree with you (and my understanding is that for the Encore Ground schools directly after the No vote, they held off on seniority draws in class).

However, my understanding is that the results of the recent polling was quite overwhelmingly in favour of keeping some sort of seniority transfer/one list and that for many of the No votes, they had issue with specific wording of the previous LOA or didn't understand some of the consequences enough and voted no out of caution. Therefore to me it would be that the MEC now has a mandate to keep some sort of seniority transfer/one list. Either way it'll be a little messy when things finally get sorted.
Again I’ll say I agree it should have been a yes vote the first time again so I don’t get angry responses.

I just think it sets a bad precedent for the MEC to go out and go against a voted in result of its members, regardless what the results of the polling were. My understanding of the polling it was done by a 3rd party, they called random mainline pilots and got feedback. Mainline pilots were not asked to participate and those who didn’t participate still don’t even know who has and what the factual results are.
I feel like this would be like if a country was to vote on an issue that benefits the people of another country and when the result is negative everyone is surprised by the results. The leadership of that country then decides to poll people at random and go against what was voted in because of the opinion of a random minority that was polled.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Stratopaused » Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:11 pm

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:13 pm
Again I’ll say I agree it should have been a yes vote the first time again so I don’t get angry responses.

I just think it sets a bad precedent for the MEC to go out and go against a voted in result of its members, regardless what the results of the polling were. My understanding of the polling it was done by a 3rd party, they called random mainline pilots and got feedback. Mainline pilots were not asked to participate and those who didn’t participate still don’t even know who has and what the factual results are.
I feel like this would be like if a country was to vote on an issue that benefits the people of another country and when the result is negative everyone is surprised by the results. The leadership of that country then decides to poll people at random and go against what was voted in because of the opinion of a random minority that was polled.
The polling was performed by a university that has a department renowned for their expertise in polling and statistics, and which has done a substantial amount of work for ALPA in the past. Regardless, the polling isn't binding, it's just a jumping off point for negotiations, and any new LOU will still have to be agreed to by all parties; to simplify, that means there will have to be another vote for both WestJet and Encore pilots, as well as management approval at all three operators. If the WestJet pilots don't agree with the MEC's handling of it, there will be ample opportunity to reject it. I don't really see any reason to get upset about the polling; it's just a starting point to get oriented, and I highly doubt the MEC would pursue any further action if they thought it was realistically going to be voted down again, thereby casting aspersions on their leadership. The polling doesn't have any tangible impact.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by Yycjetdriver » Sat Jul 06, 2019 7:04 am

Stratopaused wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 9:11 pm
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:13 pm
Again I’ll say I agree it should have been a yes vote the first time again so I don’t get angry responses.

I just think it sets a bad precedent for the MEC to go out and go against a voted in result of its members, regardless what the results of the polling were. My understanding of the polling it was done by a 3rd party, they called random mainline pilots and got feedback. Mainline pilots were not asked to participate and those who didn’t participate still don’t even know who has and what the factual results are.
I feel like this would be like if a country was to vote on an issue that benefits the people of another country and when the result is negative everyone is surprised by the results. The leadership of that country then decides to poll people at random and go against what was voted in because of the opinion of a random minority that was polled.
The polling was performed by a university that has a department renowned for their expertise in polling and statistics, and which has done a substantial amount of work for ALPA in the past. Regardless, the polling isn't binding, it's just a jumping off point for negotiations, and any new LOU will still have to be agreed to by all parties; to simplify, that means there will have to be another vote for both WestJet and Encore pilots, as well as management approval at all three operators. If the WestJet pilots don't agree with the MEC's handling of it, there will be ample opportunity to reject it. I don't really see any reason to get upset about the polling; it's just a starting point to get oriented, and I highly doubt the MEC would pursue any further action if they thought it was realistically going to be voted down again, thereby casting aspersions on their leadership. The polling doesn't have any tangible impact.
I get all that. The poll and the topic in the poll is not the concern I have. It also doesn’t matter to me who conducted the poll.
My sole concern is the MEC implementing conditions that go against voted in results by its members, even if its temporary.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by citizenbanana » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:57 am

Can you just cancel a vote because you don't like the results and put everything back the way it was until you get what you want? Doesn't sound like the democratic process to me
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by sstaurus » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:53 pm

It’s not back the way it was, my impression is they are just maintaining the list, really just for ‘housekeeping’ purposes. Nothing is finalized or in force yet.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by JBI » Sat Jul 06, 2019 10:48 pm

sstaurus wrote:
Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:53 pm
It’s not back the way it was, my impression is they are just maintaining the list, really just for ‘housekeeping’ purposes. Nothing is finalized or in force yet.
This is correct.

Nothing of substance will occur at the moment with respect to those affected by the seniority draws. Either the draws will remain if a new seniority transfer agreement is completed, or if it is not agreed on now, the list will not stay joined and will be separated.

At this point, the new hires drawing a name won't have any specific items that affect them (i.e. base moves, upgrades, layoffs).

So again, it would be a different story if 1- there wasn't a mandate and 2- there are direct impacts on the persons drawing a number this month. But in practicality, it generally won't make a difference. From what I understand about the polling, the No vote was a vote against the previous LOU in that form, not a vote saying we don't want One List/Seniority Transfer period.

While there are definitely arguments for proceeding in a different manner, and I definitely see and respect your opinion on the matter, I do think it's making a mountain out of a mole hill.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by cloak » Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:11 am

Yycjetdriver wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:13 pm

I just think it sets a bad precedent for the MEC to go out and go against a voted in result of its members, regardless what the results of the polling were. My understanding of the polling it was done by a 3rd party, they called random mainline pilots and got feedback. Mainline pilots were not asked to participate and those who didn’t participate still don’t even know who has and what the factual results are.
I feel like this would be like if a country was to vote on an issue that benefits the people of another country and when the result is negative everyone is surprised by the results. The leadership of that country then decides to poll people at random and go against what was voted in because of the opinion of a random minority that was polled.
That is good observation. It also seems that this email has NOT been circulated to all members! Regardless of MEC sentiments, present or past(recalled), there has JUST been a democratic vote by the membership which the MEC, under DFR, is bound to its own members to uphold; which leaves the MEC treading in some murky waters.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by MrTurbine » Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:17 pm

cloak wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 8:11 am
Yycjetdriver wrote:
Fri Jul 05, 2019 12:13 pm

I just think it sets a bad precedent for the MEC to go out and go against a voted in result of its members, regardless what the results of the polling were. My understanding of the polling it was done by a 3rd party, they called random mainline pilots and got feedback. Mainline pilots were not asked to participate and those who didn’t participate still don’t even know who has and what the factual results are.
I feel like this would be like if a country was to vote on an issue that benefits the people of another country and when the result is negative everyone is surprised by the results. The leadership of that country then decides to poll people at random and go against what was voted in because of the opinion of a random minority that was polled.
That is good observation. It also seems that this email has NOT been circulated to all members! Regardless of MEC sentiments, present or past(recalled), there has JUST been a democratic vote by the membership which the MEC, under DFR, is bound to its own members to uphold; which leaves the MEC treading in some murky waters.
Keep in mind the mainline pilots originally voted no for 3 reason.
1. A lot of pilots didn’t even know there was a vote (vast amount of more senior folk)
2. A lot of pilots had no idea what they were voting for, they didn’t even read the document and just asked their buddies what to vote. This is sadly the highest percentage among my 3 points.
3. Layoff protection and pension wording

The mainline MEC screwed up in more ways than one. So much to vote on with just one click of a Yes/No button basically.

New info. This is going out to a vote soon. Only pilots who are on property at Encore BEFORE MAY 14 2019 will keep their westjet seniority, nobody else. If you started after that day, you only start mainline seniority when you finally flow to swoop or mainline. Once this gets voted in, this will be the true end of the one list.

I haven’t been on aVCanada In a long time, because I wanted to avoid the drama. But I am here just to educate new pilots of what’s going on here at encore.

Choose wisely.
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Re: Updates on one - list.

Post by citizenbanana » Sat Sep 07, 2019 7:31 pm

Turbine doesn't seem to understand what a resolution is. Please do not take his word for fact. Maybe this will go to a pilot group vote. Maybe it won't. The MEC will decide
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